Jeff Sipe , a.ka. Apt Q-258 – Inside “Improvision” and out

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The phone rings, and it’s my friend, AbstractLogix’s founder, president, producer, mastermind, chief cook and bottle washer Souvik Dutta. He starts telling me some of the plans he has for the up-coming John McLaughlin tour. The conversation then turns to AbstractLogix Records latest release, “Improvision”. Featuring guitarist Alex Machacek, bassist Matthew Garrison, and drummer Jeff Sipe (aka Apt. Q-258), “Improvision” continues Souvik’s successful throw ’em in a room and see what happens approach to producing recording projects.

The twist on “Improvision” is: Alex and Jeff were meeting Matthew for the first time before the sessions; neither had played with him before. And due to scheduling issues, the musicians were only available for one weekend. And topping things off, over the course of the weekend they only tallied four hours together in the studio. The recording would be re-crafted and re-worked in post production by Alex.

You want me to write a review? I asked, already thinking up adjectives to describe how much I liked the CD. No, Souvik says, I was wondering if you could interview Jeff Sipe?…….Me??

I became a fan of Jeff’s drumming after hearing his work as a trio with the late-great guitarist Shawn Lane and bass phenom Jonas Hellborg. I would defy anyone to listen to the title track of their “Time Is The Enemy” CD, and not be blown away by the sheer visceral energy they were capable of producing. And the bootlegs of the band, prized by traders, offer testimony to their level of musicianship and intensity. But I didn’t know a lot about Jeff’s life and music pre-Lane / Hellborg. You’ll want to check out www.jeffsipe.org to get Jeff’s complete bio and discography.

I also had the pleasure of meeting Jeff in 2005. He is a super nice guy with a spiritual sense about life, as well as drumming; which is right up my alley. So would I interview Jeff?……I would LUV to interview Jeff!

PART ONE

Rod: Have you heard the final version of the “Improvision” CD?

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, I have.

Rod: And what do you think of it?

Jeff: Matt and Alex are just geniuses and so virtuosic at what they do. I’m so proud to be on the CD with those masters. I wish that I had met them when I was a teenager; it took me ’til I was 48 to find them.

Rod: How did the project come about? Did you get a phone call, just out-of-the-blue, from Souvik saying, Hey, I got an idea?

Jeff: That’s exactly how it happened: What do you think? What do you think about this idea?…..Well first, my introduction to Alex Machacek was in India, of all places. Souvik invited me over to be a part of his wedding – which is a terrific honor – and arranged a festival where Alex and I could play together. So we worked on a few tunes. Alex had sent me some sheet music of “Austin Powers” and other things of his; which is some of the most impossible music I’ve ever heard to try to pull off. So I was immediately challenged. This is the kind if music I’ve always wanted to do; always heard in my head. So it was a gift. Alex’s music also raised the bar with my own playing. Because that stuff is so advanced that it takes a lot of technique to pull it off. But at the same time, he’s got melody going through the whole thing. It’s not just exercises in music and virtuosity. His music is really beautiful; absolutely beautiful melodies. It’s hard to do that. The chance to play with him in India is how I kinda bonded with Alex. And then Souvik said, What do you think about Matt? Let’s do a trio. I said, Oh my God, yeah. Matt I had heard just a little bit before, so I’m really a newcomer to his playing. And I’m so impressed.

Rod: Since this was your first time meeting Matt, what was the personal and musical chemistry like?

Jeff: Oh, it was really relaxed. Matt made everybody feel like we had been hangin’ out a long time. He made everybody feel real comfortable. As far as bass and drums, that’s a relationship that usually has to take time to really solidify into one mind. And he made that happen right away. I can’t say enough about his playing. It’s so unique and so different. It’s playing bass, but so much more than that.

Rod: How do you approach a situation like that? Do you have to adjust your drumming to the individual’s playing style in order to develop that relationship as a rhythm section?

Jeff: For me, it was establishing some kind of a tempo and feel, and then looking for the themes. It was more about listening to what was happening, working with the ideas that were being thrown out, and just call-and-response theme and variation. From the theme and variations, I try to improvise something that sounds like it’s been written. Also, I’m listening for what the music wanted to do. I mean, we all want to do our thing, but the music dictates what it wants, too. So it’s a fine line you walk when you want to get a lot of you own ideas out. But you have to surrender in every second to the possibility of the music writing itself. It’s a real Zen thing when you think about it.

Rod: Let’s talk more about your approach to the sessions. If Alex was more of a blues style player, would that have changed the way you would have played, in terms of reacting to him?

Jeff: Oh sure. Oh sure, yeah of course. And also, I had to keep in mind how Souvik wanted the project. He wanted something that was accessible to the people; something that could groove. But at the same time, he wanted the shredding thing; he wanted people to play. He also wanted people to dance to it if they wanted to. So I had to keep that in mind. For me, it was a perfect balance of art and music, with kind of an accessible feeling.

Rod: The sessions took place very quickly, so you didn’t have a lot of time to feel each other out.

Jeff: That’s true, yeah. We had just a few hours, really, to do the whole thing.

Rod: Even ECM artists had at least two or three days to make a record [chuckles].

Jeff: Yeah. Three full days would have been perfect.

Rod: How did the material come together?

Jeff: The first song on the CD There’s A New Sheriff In Town, that was an improv. The second one Along Came A Spider, that was a composition that we improvised on; but it had been sketched already. To Whom It May Concern, was an improvised piece. I think most of them were improv’s. Matt’s Riff was a theme we came up with just accenting the end of the phrase, keeping the rhythm thing going.

Rod: That’s my favorite track. It really showcases what I like about your playing; the stuff you put between the beat, and the way you shift the rhythm.

Jeff: It’s such a magical thing to be a part of a group of creative people, just doing something spontaneous and surrendering to the moment. That’s so cool, man.

Rod: Alex has a different approach to making music and recording. And his guitar playing has a bit of quirkiness to it. Did you prepare for any curveballs in his music?

Jeff: No, not so much. He’s really organized. He came really prepared, and he had some of the pieces worked. He knew what he wanted, and just worked with what he got. He did a skeleton part for himself. It wasn’t so much about playing the solo that was going to make the album, then. It was, All right, I’m gonna have a framework here. I’m gonna set up a framework, and then I’m gonna go back and fill it in. So I could see that’s where he was coming from, and was just so pleased with what came out. It’s a great way to do it: come on in and set up the framework. Just do what needs to be done at that level, first.

Rod: Did you find yourself holding back at first, and then opening up as the sessions went on?

Jeff: Well, I wanted to be careful enough not to mess things up. Like, Aww Jeff, get it right! So I wanted to be safe enough to go for the stuff I knew. But at the same time I challenged myself a little bit to react spontaneously and instantaneously. So you never know what will happen. I was listening to some Keith Jarrett Trio last night, that’s a wonderful model for an improvising band.

Rod: Oh yeah. Those guys are telepathic in their playing with each other at this point.

Jeff: What I was trying to achieve on “Improvision” was what I perceive Jarrett’s trio to be doing: which is kind of dancing across the music with each other. Because of the way they interact with each other, they don’t get in each others way. But at the same time, they don’t hesitate to play any of their ideas. They’ve got a wonderful way to play really intricately, without being dense. It’s all transparent, but it’s moving all the time, too.

Rod: Does the role of the rhythm section get skewed a little when you’re in a situation where there’s collective improvisation going on? You’re not really supporting a soloist in a traditional sense.

Jeff: In the group’s that I’ve played with that have been the most experimental, there isn’t really a set order of solos. That’s kind of just taken – or given – on the spot. It might make sense to follow a bass solo with a drum solo, or it might not; it might be the wrong thing to do. In the improv world, every second counts. You just listen to the music and be ready to be supportive when needed. The soloist kind of surfs the music. If music was a wave, the improviser goes surfing. If you go against the wave, then it smacks you. Music does the same thing. I’ve been crushed by musical waves when I’ve gone against it. [Jeff plays the “Improvision” CD in the background]

Rod: So Alex stripped down the tracks and re-recorded most of his stuff?

Jeff: It was really stripped down, man. I think where 100% of what I did at that moment is on the album, only a small percentage of their stuff is. I think 90% of Alex’s stuff was re-done. Matt laid down a lot of the bottom stuff; and did some solo stuff, so that we could work it later. Alex did a really good job making it seem like everybody was calling and responding at the same time. He would set me up, and he’d use the rhythms that I laid down to create different scenarios for us.

Rod: Let’s listen to track 10, Matt’s Riff.The way you support Matt’s solo on that track; your accents are just so smooth. And the rhythm patterns really excite my ears. That’s what I love about your playing.

Jeff: Thanks. I tried to lift it up a little bit to get away from 2&4. America is obsessed with 2&4. All my life I’ve been hearing over the bar lines. Like broad rhythms, but filled in. So there’d be lots of notes in-between, but there’d be a broad – lots of dotted quarter notes, dotted eighth notes, dotted half notes…

Rod: Yeah, those rhythmic shifts.

Jeff: [listening to Matt’s Riff] Well, I drop it into a half-time and adding and-a-4. I think it loosens it up a bit, kind of makes it a little bit happier; without getting in the way too much.

Rod: I was thinking that if Dennis Chambers was on this piece, it would just be all BOOM. Not taking anything away from Dennis, but it’s that lightness and finesse that you have that’s really a strength.

Jeff: Thanks. I had some good teachers along the way, man. Dave Palamer showed me some things I’m still working on. In high school I studied with him; I took six lessons with him. And he explained some of the classical technique. And wow, what a difference it made!

Rod: As you’re refining your technique over the years: are you taking out, or are you adding in?

Jeff: Oh both, both. It’s like a marble sculpture, man. It’s either a block of marble or it’s a blank canvas; you gotta cut away or add to it [chuckles]. [Still listening to Matt’s Riff] Okay, for instance right here, after the bass solo there’s a guitar solo. And I’m really busy on it. Because I didn’t know what was gonna be goin’ down at the time. And I felt like, these guys need something to work with, and it needs to be elevated here. I’m playing my heart out here, trying to give them some stuff to work with; knowing full well that when we get the CD back none of the things I’m hearing will be on there except for the basic framework. So I was like, okay, here’s an idea; here’s a rhythm, here’s a theme. And then sure enough, Alex heard it and wrote music to it. That’s what Jonas Hellborg did on Good People In Times Of Evil. He got [Indian percussionist] Selvaganesh in a hotel room, laid down the albums worth of drum tracks – just drum compositions – and then wrote music to that. Then Shawn Lane came in on top of that and put the melody on. So it was stacked, based on drum compositions.

Rod: When you see the names on the new CD, you assume a lot of cranking is gonna happen. Yet some of the tracks are very melodic pieces with subtle dynamics.

Jeff: We do crank on a few tunes. I can only speak for my own view: when I think about Matt and Alex, they’re such mature players that although they can play a zillion notes, they do it in a way that’s really mature and expressive and melodic. And they take their time. I think there are a lot of notes on the CD, but it’s not like a…

Rod: Like a shredder’s chops-fest?

Jeff: …yeah, yeah.

Rod: Heeey, ain’t nothin’ wrong with a chops-fest every now and then.

Jeff: [laughs].

Rod: I mean, we both go back to the fusion from the ’70s.

Jeff: That’s right.

PART TWO

Rod: I know this a wide-ranging question, but can you put into words your relationship with music?

Jeff: That is a tough question because music takes over where words end. In the full spectrum of human expression, words only account for a slice of the whole pie. The rest of it, for me, lies in the psychic realm and music. I think that’s the land of ESP, and it’s the land of intention. Intention is instantly revealed in the first note that you play. It’s hard to put it into words. But I think my relationship to music is – it’s divine. It’s sacred enough to pursue my own art; while I try to make a living doing it. I think I’ve found a really good spot, a good space. So I’m really enjoying what I’m doing. My relationship to music is kind of like a Father-Mother-God thing rolled up into one. I feel safe there.

Rod: Do you feel that being a musician – I’m gonna change that word. Do you feel that being a drummer is a calling?

Jeff: Yeah, definitely. Music is a calling. Drums are the instrument I chose because I guess I feel like I could more easily do that than anything else. And it’s just so much fun to get behind a kit! It’s just a blast! I can’t think of a safer way to pass the time [chuckles]. It’s just awesome. You don’t get into trouble. You’re not responsible for anything breaking. You’re not getting into trouble doin’ naughty things. You’re just playing [laughs].

Rod: Do you see yourself as part of a new movement?

Jeff: Perhaps, yeah. I’m just so surprised. I look around and I go, How did I get here? This is really a wonderful CD, with beautiful musicians. Rhythmically we doing some new things – I mean, it’s really not new. In the classical world, composer Edgar Verase, he’s been using great rhythms for a long, long time. But it hasn’t worked into modern electric radio music [chuckles]…

Rod: Yeah, well, nothing has, given the current state of radio programming.

Jeff: …some of the odd groupings and stuff that Frank Zappa wrote in his music and Steve Vai was so great at playing. And now there’s Alex playing the next level of that, taking that and just really making it his own thing.

Rod: In general, do you see a trend of musicians wanting not to over play because of the bad word fusion has become and it being a “chops” oriented type of music?

Jeff: You mean is there a perception among musicians these days that maybe they shouldn’t shred so much like in the old days?

Rod: Yeah, that’s what I should have said.

Jeff: Well, no. I think it’s more career based, or something like that. It’s like, how am I going to make a living playing the stuff I know?

I mean, look at John McLaughlin, it seems that he’s never compromised his music at all. It’s always been exactly what he wanted to play. Shredding stuff, or sensitive, beautiful stuff; electronic stuff, or acoustic stuff. Whatever it is, I can’t imagine him ever selling out. Music’s too sacred for him.

So I think there are different levels of that in every musician. Music is many things to many people. And the people whose soul really needs to get that stuff out – I say celebrate your demons. McLaughlin is actually celebrating his demons…

Rod: That’s a great way to put it!

Jeff: …put ’em out there in an artistic form, and turn it into beauty. Turn it into absolute beauty!

Rod: How are you expressing your own music? Are you writing more for your own trio, or collaborating?

Jeff: We’re doing some improvs, but we’re doing some standards as well; some modern stuff. We have more tunes that we do than we have improvs. We’re picking some really hip covers and some standards, and trying to do some new things with them that way. I’m practicing some things. I’ve been working on this 32-bar tihai [in Indian music, like a cadenza that is played three times]. We’re gonna work it into this band that I’ve got going on now. We’ve been driving around from gig to gig just kind of reciting it, practicing it that way. It’s really fun, it’s a challenge; like a tongue twister.

Rod: That’s what Indian drummers do. They’re able to sing a rhythm pattern before they play it.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s the trick. If you can sing it, you can play it, that’s the phrase.

Rod: Along those lines: I relate your playing with tabla players, in that their drumming is not bombastic. The lightness in your drumming allows you to hear all of the drums at a consistent level.

Jeff: Thanks. I’ve been working on that. In the early years, I was probably hitting real hard. My Grandma used to say, You still beating the hell out of those drums? when she would see me. And I always kept that in mind. I thought, Yeah, I don’t have to hit these things so hard. I’ll work on my technique a little bit. That’s why I love playing in this acoustic trio I’ve got going on right now. We can play at a whisper; bring out the brushes and play real delicate in a listening room. So I’m really enjoying that.

Rod: When you were in India, how did you relate to drumming as a Western musician?

Jeff: It’s a classical art form. It’s like the highest level of playing, writing, and imagination.

Rod: Drumming is a divine art in India.

Jeff: Yeah. I got the feeling that it’s treated as a sacred art form. And really developed, I mean incredibly. Rhythmically and melodically some of the most developed ideas of any culture that I’ve heard. The West seems to have the harmony, the East seems to have the rhythm. Put that together, it’s just wonderful.

That’s why I love McLaughlin for his contributions; and Trilok Gurtu for his. The East meets West, I think more of that is going to happen. It’s really exciting to think about the future of music. Because with the globalization of music it’s going to be the best of the harmony, the best of the rhythm, and the best of the melody. And hopefully, the best of the soul.

Rod: I first met Souvik in Montreal in 2005. I go to his hotel room, and he’s playing some music. Souvik asks, What do you think of this? I didn’t know it at the time, but he was playing some Lane / Hellborg / Sipe. Now I played guitar, and Shawn Lane is just wailing away doin’ some blistering stuff on this tune. But I say to Souvik, That’s cool. Who’s the drummer? True story [laughs]!

Jeff: That’s funny. We had some good times. I remember flyin’ – the sensation of flyin’ like an eagle. That hasn’t happened much. Actually, a lot more these days. But specifically with Shawn. Sometimes we’d just be playing a duet – you know the trio sometimes played solos and duets as well as the trio thing. I remember just feelin’ like a bird, like an eagle just soaring, man. It sounds corny to say, but I know what that saying feels like now, having done it with Shawn. Just awesome.

Rod: Lane / Hellborg / Sipe was a very special group to a lot of people, and listeners mainly associate your playing with that group. Is it hard to move musically beyond that band with fans? Is it a monkey on your back in a sense?

Jeff: Oh no no, not at all! It’s like a calling card. It’s some of the best stuff that I’ve been a part of. I love those guys. I love their music. It was a thrill to be a part of that band. I think it helps elevate my playing. These situations like the Lane / Hellborg thing and this “Improvision” CD: playing with that caliber of musician helps elevate your playing a lot faster than just sitting in a practice room or playing gigs around town.

Rod: Is there a way to compare the two?

Jeff: It comes back to intention. There are a million reasons why any musician would pick up an instrument. I’m convinced there’s gotta be at least a million reasons. I’ve been lucky enough to play with some musicians who make it a language; who understand it as a language. And they will call and respond; they will allow for space in their music – and in their playing – for interaction with musicians. And then there are other musicians who just do their thing; and you’re pretty much just gonna lay the rug down for them to do their thing……So when I’m playing with different musicians: whatever it is, it is. You can’t make it what it’s not. So if it’s a thing where you have to lay the rug down and let everybody play on it, that’s great. If it’s a thing where you’re on a surfboard and everybody else on the surfboard is riding the same wave, that’s another feeling. Or if it’s flying like an eagle, like with Shawn Lane, that’s another kind of thing. But you can’t do that with everybody…..So, it is what it is. And when you’re there, whatever your intention is, it’s instantly revealed.

Rod: How have your musician’s ears changed since the Lane / Hellborg days?

Jeff: Well, I think I understand better now what it means to be a support player. I know better now how to interact with musicians and play what the song needs. And at the same time, put a spark in it and lift it up a little bit; give it some life [chuckles]. And have a good time with the people I’m with.

Rod: In terms of technique: how do you hear yourself when you play?

Jeff: How do I hear myself in my own playing?

Rod: Yeah. Like if I describe the tone I’m going for when I play I say light bottom and mids when I want it dark, bridge pickup and full treble when I’m on the high-gain and want it to growl.

Jeff: I like to hear my drums sound like a piano. With full resonance, clarity, sparkling high-end, nice rich full – but not muddy – bottom end.

Rod: When playing guitar, the instrument is against your body, and you can feel feedback and how the instrument responds through you. How does the resonance and feel of the drums transfer to a drummer since you’re not in intimate contact with them?

Jeff: Our ears are probably closer to the instrument sound source. We’re sitting down, the drums are up off the ground; so automatically your head is two or three feet away from the hi-hat, snare drum, crash cymbals, all that stuff, but it can be a really loud, loud instrument. The challenge is to blend the four limbs into the rhythm where you have dimension, a 3-D sound. Like you have some soft stuff, medium stuff, and some louder stuff; all within the beat. Or at times, everything is the same volume. But trying to blend each drum or cymbal into the instrument as a whole – because sometimes I’m playing a six-piece kit, and you have two cymbals and a hi-hat, two crashes, maybe two rides; so there’s a lot of sounds right there. And I to try to make it sound like one instrument, like together; getting them to blend. So I try to hear myself blending in with either myself or whatever is happening right now. And also, playing to the room. I get real sensitive to the room, man.

Rod: Like the acoustics of the room?

Jeff: Yeah, yeah. I have to play in a lot of high end places. Places that have glass and brick and wood. Tile ceilings, metal ceilings. You don’t have to turn up in those places; don’t even need a P.A. I find myself really sensitive to the volume in the room.

Rod: Is there a dream list of musicians that you would like to do a project like “Improvision” with?

Jeff: A dream list of musicians to play with? Gee, I dare not dream some things because I just don’t think I’m even ready for it. I’m still a practicing musician, an evolving musician, you know.

Rod: Yeah, but all you modest guys say that.

Jeff: Well…

Rod: C’mon now [chuckles].

Jeff: I aspire to converse musically with the likes of Holdsworth, Jarrett, Bill Frisell; just so many. Metheny. It would be just awesome to be able to hangout with Michael Brecker; now he’s moved on.

Rod: Yeah, that’s a huge loss.

Jeff: I had a chance to play with Danny Gatton. There wasn’t a specific date or anything. But I had a chance to talk with him once, and told him I really wanted to play with him. So I felt like that could have happened. He’s moved on, as well. But that would have been a thrill, man.

Rod: Is there anything that you wanted to talk about? Any topic like, If I had a chance to say something…

Jeff: Yeah. I think Souvik and his team, his lovely wife Shweta, and Powa, all the people that work with him; I think what they’re doing is really, really awesome. I mean, he’s only been around for a couple of years but it’s made such a difference to so many people. I love what AbstractLogix has done for world music, what they’ve done for so many artists: giving them a chance to put anything they want out there as long as it’s pure and genuine. Souvik’s really helped out so many people. I just want to say thanks a lot to AbstractLogix. I think they’re doing a really wonderful thing for the planet. The planet without AbstractLogix isn’t quite as joyful to me.

Rod: Amen to that!

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Jeff Sipe Apt Q-258 Interview

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A remarkably flexible drummer who has exhibited great flash and bombast with the Aquarium Rescue Unit and in an expansive power trio with bassist Jonas Hellborg and the late guitarist Shawn Lane, Jeff Sipe is also capable of tastefully swinging support and coloristic textures on the kit, as he demonstrates on his auspicious debut as a leader, “Timeless”, on the Blues Planet label. Known as Apt. Q258 during ARU’s heyday in the early ‘90s, Sipe has also gigged and recorded with Delta bluesman CeDell Davis (who plays slide guitar with a butter knife), with jamband darlings Leftover Salmon and Jazz Is Dead as well as the ferocious fusion outfit Project Z, featuring ARU guitarist Jimmy Herring. He currently is a member of Susan Tedeschi’s Working Blues Band and also appears on the debut recording by Bela Fleck & The Flecktones saxophonist Jeff Coffin (Bloom on Compass Records). Aside from own his stellar debut as a leader, look for Sipe on upcoming releases by Project Z and a new trio featuring bassist Hellborg and bassoonist Paul Hanson (who is featured prominently on Timeless). Sipe spoke to Abstract Logix from his home in Brevard, North Carolina.

BM: I was kind of surprised by your new record.

JS: Yeah, I think a few people might be expecting something a little different from me.

BM: Well, certainly from the stuff that I’ve heard you play with Jonas, like Time is the Enemy, Personae and Temporal Analogues of Paradise…that stuff is slamming, really hard-hitting. It’s a completely different approach to the kit than what you’re doing here.

JS: Absolutely, yes.

BM: This sounds like it represents a whole different side of your playing. In general, the vibe of this record reminded me of this obscure Les McCann record from the early ‘70s called “Invitation to Openness”.

JS: Wow, I’m not hip to that. I know about the live at Montreux sessions with Eddie Harris…Compared To What and all.

BM: This is something that came after that. It’s all Fender Rhodes with a much more spacious vibe. It’s not the gospel soul thing that Les is so noted for but it’s more open-ended and searching, in a way. A real relaxed, creative, exploratory vibe. Like your record.

JS: Yeah, I was going for melody on this album. I really was so distressed at the world’s situation in the past couple of years that I realized what I really wanted to hear more than anything was beautiful melodies. I’m at a place in my life where I’m looking for beauty…with depth, of course. Some harmonic depth. But undeniable, beautiful melodies and great soloists. So I really wanted to put something beautiful into the world because I put so much energy in past projects and bands where it was all about playing a lot of notes and really challenging myself on strictly a player level. But on this album I really just wanted be supportive and be surrounded by incredible musicians with a strong sense of melody.

BM: That certainly comes across on a tune like Song for Emmi, which almost feels like an Appalachian hymn or something.

JS: Yeah, that’s pretty, isn’t it? Very sweet. (Bassist) Derek Jones wrote that song for his daughter. So the intention is…you can imagine writing a tune for your daughter. It’s real precious.

BM: One other thing that surprised me…just because I had never heard you play this style before…was the very light, interactive kind of swing feel that you have on a tune like Atlas Shrugged. That sounds like it’s coming from a wholly different world from the stuff that you were doing with Jonas or ARU.

JS: Yeah, what’s really closest to my heart when I sit down behind the kit and I’m playing just by myself is usually kind of a bebop world that I’m really fascinated by. There’s just so much freedom, so much nuance in the triplet…it’s just a different animal than the straight 16th note or the straight 8th note. It’s just a completely different world being in the swing thing. So I really love it. I’ve always been a fan of  Tony Williams and Jack DeJohnette and all the great jazz drummers going back to Kenny Clarke and Max Roach. I used to practice along with Benny Goodman and Count Basie records and stuff like that. I love that world. But I also love the ECM-ish approach, where you’re playing a lot of cymbals and there’s a lot of space between the notes. I certainly love to play fast and loud and hard for a long time, and I had a lot of fun playing that style. But there is the other side that I find myself gravitating towards, especially now. The older I get, the more melody and more space between the notes I want. I’ve also realized that recording is a completely different animal than live. Most of the recordings that I’ve appeared on have been in live situations. This is one of the few studio albums that I’m on.

BM: And this was your first as a leader?

JS: Yeah, this is my first in terms of actually having a budget to be able to go in and get the players I wanted and not worry about the radio play, per se, but be able to put something out that I really enjoyed. It’s nice to have a budget to go in, and the guys at Blue Planet Records said anything I wanted to record and give to them, they would release. So I had an opportunity to produce my own album right out of the gate and do what I wanted to do. We had three days in the studio and the first two were about getting the tunes down, and then the last day was having fun in improv settings in different configurations. I told everybody on the session I’d like for them to play a solo piece for two minutes, as if they were offering something back to the Creator…like a musical prayer. So it was fabulous. Everybody did a couple versions of it, so we ended up with 24 tracks on the session. Thirteen made it to this album but there’s some really beautiful stuff that didn’t make it.

BM: An especially strong voice throughout this recording is the electric bassoon player Paul Hanson.

JS: Yeah! Are you hip to him?

BM: Well, I am now. I hadn’t heard of him before but he really knocked me out with how free he was with the bassoon on your record.

JS: Yeah, I featured him on this album, along with (flutist) Kofi Burbridge. That, I think, was a really good pairing. They work together so well. Kofi really sight-read all of Paul’s charts. We do a number of tunes by Paul and all of Kofi’s stuff was first take and there was little discussing, if any, on the treatment of each tune. But once they started playing together, Kofi was matching the phrases exactly with Paul…almost on a psychic level. His ESP senses were really working on this session.

BM: I’ve seen Kofi before with Derek’s band, doubling on keyboards and flute.

JS: Right. He’s such a supportive player but when you really give him a chance to do his own thing his own way, I haven’t heard anything like it before. It’s really pretty magnificent.

BM: You mentioned that different people contributed compositions to this record. Did you write any of the material here?

JS: The two group collaborations, Proteus Melodious and Six Degrees, are the only thing that I’m co-author on. We did five group improvs while we were recording and those two made the album. But I didn’t write any tunes for this project myself. I’m not really so much a composer as I am a player, so I invited everybody to bring some tunes to the session. I think more important than me showing my compositional talents, it was more important to me to get a really solid, great batch of material together. And that meant, of course, letting everybody else contribute.

BM: I like the use of tablas throughout this recording. That adds an interesting flavor, especially on that tune that Derek Trucks plays on.

JS: Yeah, Osiris. His name is Mayook Bhaumik. He’s from Calcutta and he spends half a year in the States and half a year in India. He’s been the touring tabla player for the past ten years for the Indian classical vocalist Pandit Jas Raj.

BM: How did you hook up with all these different players? It seems like a really unique group of people to gather for one project, but it worked so well.

JS: Yeah, I think it works pretty well. I met Paul Hanson through Derek Jones and Paul McCandless. I was playing with a group called Commotion and Paul McCandless was in that group. And he had been playing a cd that just floored me completely, so I had to get a copy of it. It was Paul Hanson’s record (1997’s “Astro Boy Blues” on Moo Records), and Derek Jones was playing bass on it. But I didn’t know who was playing on it because I had just the cd without any information. So it was my new favorite and I was playing it for everybody. And when Derek Jones had moved to Nashville from the Bay Area he called me up and came down to visit and we hung out for a while, and a little while into it he asked me what my favorite stuff is that I had been listening to and I said, You won’t believe this stuff, and I put Paul Hanson’s cd on. And Derek got a great big smile across his face and just sat there. And I said, I don’t know who else is playing on this other than Paul but it’s my new favorite. And he said, Yeah, that’s me on bass. So that was most auspicious…and serendipitous. I met Kofi Burbridge and his brother Oteil (former bassist with ARU) in 1987 when they moved from Virginia Beach to Atlanta. We played in a Top 40 band together called Knee Deep, which didn’t last too long. But for me, it was an introduction to their genius. (Keyboardist and violinist) Jason Crosby and I met through Susan Tedeschi when we were both playing with her. Derek Trucks and I have been friends since ARU days. I think he was about 11 years old when I met him. He was already on the road by that time. I think I met him first in Charleston at the old Music Farm. It’s funny how you meet folks. Every year someone else comes into your life. The family grows, gets a little bigger.

BM: How did you meet Jonas Hellborg?

JS: I met Jonas through Shawn Lane, and I met Shawn through the Aquarium Rescue Unit when we used to come through Memphis. That’s where Shawn lived. He would come out and sit in with us whenever we came to town, and then when ARU disbanded Shawn gave a call and said he had been playing with Jonas and Kofi Baker. They had put out that album “Abstract Logic” and started touring. Shawn and Jonas later came by for a visit. We played a few times and that led to an opportunity to go to Europe and play with them. Jonas recorded all those sessions. In the year and a half that we were together with Shawn he got quite a bit of live stuff recorded. I think Shawn and Jonas met at a NAMM show and they hit it off right away, of course. Jonas had told me that he had given up on guitar players and he wasn’t going to start another band with a guitar player and then he heard Shawn and said, We’ve got to do this!

BM: Jonas was profoundly saddened by Shawn’s passing, as a lot of people were.

JS: Yeah. I don’t even know where to begin. He’s one of the heaviest cats I’ve ever met and one of the lightest at the same time. He had an incredible ability to perceive the world and laugh at it. Instead of just becoming overly depressed he would just bust out into laughter. Pretty amazing human.

BM: I remember meeting him a while ago when he had that first record that came out on Warner Bros., “Powers of Ten”. I interviewed him for some guitar magazine at the time and I remember him being a very sweet guy..as well as a very deep virtuoso.

JS: Shawn was a really sweet person and had an incredible appetite for everything interesting in life. As obsessed as he was about music and performing, he was the same way about the culinary arts and great literature…everything that life had to offer, he would consume it. And he wasn’t afraid of anything.

BM: I remember talking to Derek Trucks about Shawn. Derek was so amazed at his depth of understanding of Indian classical music.

JS: Yeah! He really got into that music deeply. Yeah, he could hear it all.

BM: The music that you played in that trio with Shawn and Jonas was certainly dynamic. How would you talk about your approach as a drummer to Jonas’ music and what that required of you, versus Aquarium Rescue Unit?

JS: Well, there’s a lot of similarities, actually. Both Jonas and Bruce (Hampton, founder and leader of the Aquarium Rescue Unit) demand playing yourself, playing your soul. For example, there were times years ago playing with Aquarium Rescue Unit where we’d be in the middle of some fusion-oriented jam, playing a million notes at a million miles an hour, and Bruce would stop us right on stage and say, What is this? Berklee?! Then he would detune his guitar and play as abstract as he could, and we’d all laugh at ourselves and join him, because we realized we weren’t really playing ourselves. He wasn’t hearing us as much as he was hearing our influences. So he would challenge us to dig deeper and play ourselves all the time. And that was a huge opportunity and lesson working with Bruce. Jonas is the same way. He really wants to hear you try to get outside of yourself and play outside the box. So there’s a lot of similarities in the approaches with those two groups. Jonas, I think, really relishes the mysterious and loves to stay in that world where nothing is quite defined but always searching. Bruce has a little bit more humor, of course, in his stuff. A lot of it is just absurdities…especially the early Col. Bruce. But as far as a drummer approaching those two situations…playing with Bruce and playing with Jonas…there was a lot that was very similar.

BM: And now in your own project, as you say, there’s more breath in your playing, it’s a little more open-ended, you’re capturing some of that ECM-ish quality. I wonder if you’re using an entirely different kit for this more airy, open-ended approach as opposed to what you played with Jonas.

JS: Same kit — bass drum, snare drum, one rack-mounted tom, one floor tom, and just a handful of cymbals. So it’s really just four drums. But yeah, on my album I didn’t want people to say, Look at that drummer! I wanted the listener to experience the group and the melody more than the chops of the drummer. So it wasn’t about me on this album, it was about trying to get some beauty back into the world. And I wanted to see, as a producer, how I would produce myself…step outside of myself as a player. There’s a lot more surrender on this album. There were times when I really wanted to take it out. On the group improvs you can kind of hear where there’s a chance for me to take it and run with it. But there’s a lot of surrender to what somebody else might suggest. I didn’t want to lead so much as a drummer on this project. I really just wanted to integrate myself into the group. Because everybody is such a great player on this album and there’s so many ideas that they bring to the table.

BM: I guess I was assuming that you played a bigger kick with Jonas and a smaller jazz kit on your own album.

JS: No for the past 12 years or so my kit has remained the same four-piece Sonor designer kit. They’re a fantastic set of drums and I feel very fortunate to play them. The cymbals are kind of mixed…mostly Zildjian.

BM: On the tune Six Degrees from your record, I get a distinct “Bitches Brew” kind of feel. Was that music at all an influence on you?

JS: Of course. That band Miles had during that period with Jack DeJohnette, Dave Holland, Keith Jarrett and Chick Corea….they were the masters of open, free, spontaneous music. Six Degrees was a spontaneous group improv. We didn’t really talk about what we were going to do ahead of time, we just rolled tape and started. So none of it was preconceived. And there’s some magic moments there that I don’t think could’ve been composed. I love that when it works. For me, it’s so much more magical than a composed piece….just the reaction time of everybody and that whole ESP sense coming to the surface.

BM: What about this odd-metered funk tune Blues Zardog II?

JS: That’s one of Paul Hanson’s pieces. It’s in 7/8. Reminds me a little bit of some ‘70s Herbie Hancock stuff.

BM: Like Crossings…that band he had with Billy Hart and Buster Williams and Benny Maupin.

JS: Yeah, right. Awesome band.

BM: That whole ‘70s exploratory feel seems to have come back in favor with a lot of bands today, where they’re seeking that kind of openness and experimentation that existed then.

JS: Definitely. There’s a nice relaxed feeling with a lot of that music that I find very appealing. On Blue Zardog II, the melody plays for the last time and then there’s an outro that lasts a good while. But there’s some nice pointillism that happens there, with everybody just listening to each other and finding the different holes to play in. There again, it’s something that would be really difficult to compose but it happened magically and it’s just amazing.

BM: So a lot of the stuff here was first takes?

JS: Yeah, except for Atlas Shrugged. We did quite a few takes on that one before we realized we needed to slow it down. The original tempo seemed to be just a bit too hurried and rushed. I think we took like ten cuts of it before we realized that it would fit a whole lot better if we just relaxed a little. So it took a minute to get there. But once we did we knew it was the one. And Kofi’s flute solo on that take is just amazing!

BM: I also like that flute-violin call-and-response at the beginning of Apparition.

JS: That was an improv as well. The third day we were able to go in and have a little more relaxed situation. So we did those prayers, which were the solos. And then we did some duets and trios. All Things Considered started out as a trio with bass, bassoon and percussion, and it’s another one of those things that happened magically. They were able to come up with the intro, the verse, chorus and outro all in one take. It was really very impressive sitting there in the control room listening to these geniuses at work. But that was a first take…a spontaneous thing that just happened. I love that when everybody’s listening and tunes just play themselves, seemingly. It’s really hard sometimes. It’s not often that you find players willing to put themselves out in that naked place.

BM: And then on the other side of the coin is a tune like Dirvish, which sounds like it’s pretty well composed going into the session.

JS: Definitely. The tunes that were pre-conceived and written before the session were Dirvish, Blue Zardog II, Osiris, Atlas Shrugged and Song For Emmi. Everything else is an improv.

BM: Where was this album recorded?

JS: In Atlanta at Ricky Keller’s old place called Southern Living At Its Finest. Ricky Keller was the bass player for Project Z. He also produced Bruce Hampton’s early works and played in the band The Late Bronze Age. Ricky was a cornerstone in the Atlanta music scene, a central figure for all of us in the Bruce Hampton camp. He was a dear friend who I miss greatly, along with Shawn. They both left this world within a month of each other last year, as I was doing this recording. I booked the time with Ricky at his studio and was just about to go in and record when he died. So the vibe was pretty sacred there.

BM: I remember seeing The Late Bronze Age in 1980 at the Mudd Club in New York. Bruce was doing some hilarious lounge singing shtick and he mimed smoking cigarettes through the whole set.

JS: Yeah, crazy stuff! And after the Late Bronze Age, a lot of that vibe was still there in the early edition of the ARU. It was a performance art group, in a way…a lot of antics and improv on stage, and music was really just a part of it. And little by little, the band got better and better and the music became more of the focal point rather than the performance art aspect. So the evolution of the band was from completely out, completely improv performance art to, in the end, a very tight band with a set list and rehearsed tunes and whatnot.

BM: What period of time did the ARU exist?

JS: 1989 to 1995. It was the Arkansas Tourists and then the Arkansas Florists, with about 15 different members coming through at different times before it finally settled into the Aquarium Rescue Unit.

BM: I remember seeing you play at the Ritz in New York in the early ‘90s. And Bruce was playing this strange instrument that looked like a mutant mandolin.

JS: He called it a chazoid. It was a guitar body and mandolin neck. And the first one, the strings were attached by nails hammered into the body. It was crazy. And Bruce was fond of telling us that he had to line up the pegs in a straight line, regardless of the tuning, before he could play. But he was a great one for getting us out of our boxes and challenging us. I remember he told Jimmy Herring once, Play an A for me Jimmy. So Jimmy played an A chord and Bruce says, No, no, no. I mean an A. So Jimmy gives him an A note and Bruce says, No, no, no…not an A note. The shape of an A on your neck. So Jimmy proceeds to play the letter of the alphabet, the way it’s shaped, on the neck. And it was completely out-sounding. Jimmy, I think, discovered the joy of ‘out’ that day, on a new level. Bruce was great to get us out of our trappings that way.

BM: What is Bruce up to now?

JS: Bruce is playing in a band called The Code Talkers. They’re real busy. They’re on the road all the time, mostly in the the Southeast.

BM: What about Jimmy Herring?

JS: Jimmy’s been playing with Phil Lesh for the last three years and then last year he got a chance to play with the Grateful Dead. He may or may not do that next year again. Jimmy and I are also playing in a group called Project Z.

BM: That’s a great group. I really liked that record you put out a few years ago (self-titled, on Terminus Records).

JS: Yeah, that was the first one with Ricky Keller on bass. And then we recorded the second one just before he died, and we got a chance to put Greg Osby on that too. So we have a new album coming out, and it’s really an assault. Completely over the top. It’s the most aggressive playing I’ve ever done on an album. It’s even a lot more aggressive than the trio with Hellborg and Lane.

BM: Wow!

JS: Yeah, it’s just nutty — odd time signatures and explosions and meltdowns and complete foldings…just disrespectful.

BM: When is that coming out?

JS: We’re shopping it now. We’d like to give Blue Note a chance at it and if they’re not interested maybe we can go some other route. But we have it, it’s mixed, it just needs to be heard and released. So that’s on the burner for this year.

BM: Well, I definitely need to hear that. Good luck with that. Anything else coming up?

JS: I’m cutting an album in San Francisco with T Lavitz, the keyboard player for the Dregs, and with Craig Erickson and Rob Wasserman. It’s going to be pretty wide open…a collaborative project.

BM: And meanwhile, there’s your own recording. Considering that everybody lives in different areas and also plays in other bands, is there a chance of doing gigs in support of this new record?

JS: We may do some festivals here and there, but as far as a touring band, it doesn’t seem likely.

BM: What other situations are you currently playing in?

JS: I’m playing with Susan Tedeschi. We have a new DVD out, which is the Austin City Limits show that we did last year. Jeff Coffin, the sax player from Bela Fleck…I’m on his new album (“Bloom”, Compass Records), so we’ll be touring that this year. And Shane Theriott, the guitar player for the Neville Brothers, started a group called The Grease Factor with Johnny Neel (formerly of the Allman Brothers) on keyboards, so there’ll be some things with that coming up this year. Also Jonas Hellborg, Paul Hanson and myself are doing a trio. We have an album coming out that was recorded live. I’m really excited about that. It sounds pretty strong. It was our debut concert. I had played with Hanson before and, of course, with Hellborg. But they had never met until that day. Basically, they talked about a few keys they wanted to play in, what felt comfortable, and that was about it…about five minutes of talking and then we hit the stage and played for about an hour and it just came together magically. That’ll be released this year.

BM: You seem incredibly active these days.

JS: Yeah, I’ve got myself spread out pretty thin so it’ll be tough just to be able to make it all work. But I’m really blessed that all these are creative projects that allow me to contribute as a player and as a composer. So they’re wonderful opportunities. As scattered as I feel sometimes, being spread so thin and doing so many different things, it really is a blessing.

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Jeff Sipe Interview

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Jeff Sipe, AKA Apt Q 258, is one of the most prolific and creative drummers around. Anyone who has seen him pound away on his kit with fireplace tools or kids? toys will attest to that! Jeff has buoyed the performances of many of today’s leading bands and stars such as the Aquarium Rescue Unit, Jeff Coffin, Susan Tedeschi, Oteil Burbridge, Jazz is Dead and Hellborg / Lane. Jeff says his drumming is all about it is about surrender and submission. Jeff agreed to submit to Abstract Logix questions and then surrendered some answers.

AL: The CD “Temporal Analogues of Paradise” has set the standards.

JS: “Temporal Analogues of Paradise” was a defining moment in my music life. It was like a culmination of years of trying to craft my art. I had been laying the roots with Colonel Bruce Hampton and the Aquarium Rescue Unit and then after that was that over, jumping in with Jonas and Shawn made me blossom and my individual voice came out in the music. The intent with Jonas when we first met was just to create on the spot instantaneous compositions. No rehearsals and no pre conceived notions at all. We would perform an entire night without any songs and then at the end of the show finish it up with some signature tunes that we had practiced. The idea was very similar when we embarked on ARU but as time passed it became more of a rigid thing.

AL: Had you been playing any music like it?

JS: It was quite similar in the beginning days of Aquarium Rescue Unit. Col Bruce and the rest of us would get together and just start playing However as time evolved, things became structured. We were more into playing the songs than actually improvising. With Jonas and Shawn, I felt that magic was created and magic can rarely be composed or thought before. It just happened. Bruce also allows for absolute freedom, His philosophy it is the intention behind everything, not what gets produced. I know of so many players that found their voice with Col Bruce. With Jonas it is more sacred but with Hampton when it gets deep it is folly. They are in contradictory levels. Bruce would always say that when in doubt, go out….. stop and do something familiar. Jonas’s intent is to involve spirit and his ego in his playing and sometimes the ego is trying to personify itself and soul is guided with spirit. It was like going to church to your creator and giving it back to him. There would be nights that if I did not feel like playing, I did not. I was just at the back burner listening …

AL: Do you have any personal projects you are working on?

JS: I have been thinking of a new record in the fall. Just be a bunch of old friends. However, me and Jimmy Herring got together in studio not too long ago. It was hysterical. The opposite of music. It was a release from everything. It is something like avant garde. undermining consistently. Almost mystical. Something that we have both learned from Col Bruce. Just keep going down in music. I don’t think it is going to be released. Its not meant for many too many people. (Laughs…). I do have an album out with the Apartment Projects that was recorded live at the Brandy House. It is an open jazz album. There were 3 basic themes that night. Funny thing was that there were moments where me and Count M Butu would be playing the same rhythm, and that was surprising to say the least.

AL: How did you get together with Jonas and Shawn?

JS: Blame it on Colonel Bruce. When ARU traveled through Memphis Shawn Lane would sit in. So, right after ARU thing was over, Shawn asked me whether I would try something with him and Jonas, and I decided to try it. I drove to Memphis , no tunes, no discussions and one of the most exciting gigs I have ever played They had met at the NAMM shows . It’s rare that you get a magical moment documented. I had a great time in Europe. Everywhere we went. Those shows in Berlin and Paris were great. We had barely played for that long and the music was fresh and we were pure. There would be moments of synchronicity. I still remember a part on the CD where we had reached a mysterious level and then for the next 30 seconds were almost scared. After playing a bunch of shows, we were just performing in psychic levels. No rehearsals, no set list, just go and play. I think it is a matter of trance and surrender….

AL: Do you think playing in a trio provided more space?

JS: A trio can get away with more than other configurations. In a duet some of that is revived. Three-way is different than a monologue; you have to surrender to the idea. I really like Keith Jarrett’s conversations. They are always shifting conversations. Dave Holland has got into a lot of that too. He does a lot of metric stuff. He is always into odd musical signatures.

AL: Jeff, thanks for your time. I hope you guys can get together more often. All the best.

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