December 2004 – https://www.abstractlogix.com/

Percy Jones is (undoubtedly) a bass virtuoso, a monster musician with an original sound. He has defined a vocabulary for the fretless bass which few others have the ability, let alone the mindset, to implement.

Here are some excerpts from a recent and very candid interview, which can be read in it’s entirety at: www.percyjones.net

MJM: I’m kind of curious about the first basses you played, we were talking recently about that Gretsch bass you had, where you filed the frets down – what was the first real fretless bass you played?

PJ: Fender Precision, fretless… I bought it in London, in ’74, second hand. I had just gotten a publishing advance for Brand X of 200 quid. I was looking in the Melody Maker, and I saw an ad in the back for instruments and gear and stuff, and it said sunburst Fender fretless Precision, excellent condition. So I went up to North London to this guy’s house, I think he was an Irish guy. He opened the case……. the bass looked like it had a couple of Guinness stains on it but was in good nick……. I looked it over and I bought it.

MJM: How much did you pay for it?

PJ: I think it was close to 200 quid, most of my advance. John Goodsall bought a fur coat.

MJM: With his advance?

PJ: Right. So the first rehearsal after we’d gotten the advance, I showed up with a new bass, Robin Lumley had bought some keyboard stuff, Goodsall walks in with this full length fur coat. So yeah, that was the first fretless, so I immediately started playing it…. I bought it about 6 or 8 weeks before we did “Unorthodox Behaviour”, so I made a determination that I was going to use it on that record, so I just worked really hard at it.

MJM: Who else had you seen even playing a fretless at that time?

PJ: I’m trying to think of anybody that I saw live…. The guy in Canned Heat, remember Canned Heat? I think he played a fretless didn’t he? You know I cant think of anybody else…. I’m talking about 1974…

MJM: So you weren’t really influenced by any other fretless players, because you hadn’t heard any?

PJ: No… but I’d listened to a lot of upright players, and I was definitely influenced by a lot of those guys…

MJM: Mingus?

PJ: Oh yeah, a lot by him. And I sort of thought well, a fretless might be interesting because you’ve got sort of an upright characteristic, but you’ve got the volume of an electric bass, it’s sort of like a hybrid approach. So I was thinking theoretically… I should try a fretless bass. When the opportunity came up to get one I just jumped on it. I was lucky really that I had the money when the ad popped up that same week. I moved from Liverpool to London in ’71 or ’72, and got this job on a construction site, and was doing that for a year or so, not playing much at all. I kept practicing, but didn’t have much sense of direction, I was kind of lost as to what I really wanted to do… When I was doing construction work I started hearing stuff coming from this country, like Miles Davis, and the stuff he was doing…. ‘electric-jazz’ I suppose.

MJM: That’s what I was about to ask; what were you listening to at that time?

PJ: I mean there was nothing interesting on the radio at that time. I was listening to jazz, I was listening to Mingus records, and Coltrane, and all that stuff… and when I was doing construction work, I met Keith Tippet who was a neighbor, and his wife Julie Driscoll. I used to hang out with them a lot, and they had a huge record collection. So I’d go over there sometimes in the evenings and listen to music. They had a lot of stuff that I’d never heard before, so they turned me onto some really good music. And then, the sort of electric stuff, jazz, was starting up over here, and when I heard that I thought I’d really like to do something like this.

MJM: What else besides Miles was catching your ear?

PJ: Well Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, people like that….you know, jazzers playing electric keyboards.

MJM: Zawinul and Weather Report maybe?

PJ: Oh yeah, Weather Report. In fact I saw them at Ronnie Scott’s, the original lineup. I walked into Scott’s one night, I didn’t know who was playing, I think I was in Soho for something and I just walked in there. These guys came out, and I recognized Zawinul and Shorter… didn’t know who anybody else was. They started playing and it was like…. wow, this is new stuff.

MJM: That was obviously with Miroslav on bass…

PJ: Yeah, and it was swinging – Miroslav and Eric Gravatt. And there was a guy playing percussion ….

MJM: Dom um Romao…

PJ: Yeah that’s right. It was excellent. I sat there for the whole set just riveted by what they were doing. It was very organic sounding, it seemed like…. there were a lot of cues going on, you’d see an eyebrow going up, and the whole band would shift. It was that nice balance between looseness and coherency.

MJM: It’s funny, I always thought that early Brand X reminded me of early Weather Report in some ways… with the balance between looseness and tightness; live I mean, because I know Brand X would really stretch out their songs, like Weather Report would do.

PJ: Yeah, the songs had a framework, but within that, sections could be open ended and could go on for as long as you wanted, depending on the night. And there would always be a cue or something, to get everybody back into what’s coming next…. so there were a lot of nods and winks going on. It’s funny you mention that comparison, because Brand X played at Ronnie Scott’s a few years later, and I overheard a guy walking downstairs to the bathrooms, complaining about us… he said something like, I didn’t come here to hear a fucking third rate Weather Report!.

MJM: Were you listening to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever?

PJ: Oh yeah, I forgot about those two. “Bird’s of Fire”, which was their first one wasn’t it? It made a big impression on British musicians, at least the ones that were into experimenting.

MJM: Were you familiar with McLaughlin at that time? He was fairly well known…

PJ: Yeah, I’d seen him….. there was a band I was in briefly, I forgot to mention this, when I left Liverpool Scene…. Myself and Mike Evans, the saxophonist, we both left at the same time, and briefly we started this fusion band called Highly Inflammable in Liverpool, which didn’t last long. But we once did a gig in Liverpool opening for Lifetime, that included Tony Williams, McLaughlin, Jack Bruce, and Larry Young. I had seen McLaughlin play before that in London in the 60’s, with Pete Brown – you know Pete Brown who wrote the lyrics for Cream? He’s a poet actually, from Liverpool originally. I went to see one of his gigs at Ronnie Scott’s old place, when it was on Gerard Street, years ago before it moved to Frith Street, and he had McLaughlin and……. I think it was Danny Thompson on bass and Terry Cox on drums, they were later in Pentangle, don’t know if you remember them. They were doing poetry and music. It was really sort of out-there……. abstract.

MJM: Did you notice McLaughlin at that time?

PJ: Yeah, and…. sort of didn’t make a huge impression. And then later when I saw him with Lifetime, I thought… wow, can’t believe it’s the same person. And Tony Williams was well……. ridiculously good. So by then of course I knew who he was, and what he could do, and then he started doing that stuff with Miles, which was quite groundbreaking. That way of playing the guitar was quite different, I mean apart from his chops; his concepts, for example, his way of inverting chords, was very interesting.

MJM: What about Return to Forever, Chick Corea’s band with Stanley Clarke on bass…

PJ: Yeah, I saw Stanley Clarke, also at Ronnie’s, before Return to Forever, he was playing with Chuck Mangione. It was quite startling, hearing him play… he was unusually good. The music was heavily Latin flavored… he had a lot of chops, all the bass players in the place were listening. He must’ve been quite young then, he looked very young, just out of school or something.

MJM: Do you remember your first hearing of Allan Holdsworth? He was fairly well known by the mid-seventies.

PJ: Yeah… we used to cross paths with him, on the college circuit in England.

MJM: Do you remember any bands he played in?

PJ: I know he played with Gong for a while…. I remember doing a gig somewhere, I think it was with Brand X at a college or university and Allan was playing in a room downstairs that same night. It wasn’t with Gong, I can’t remember who the band was. He played with Tony Williams for a little while during that time….And Soft Machine…. there’s a funny story about that, because I played with them after he played with them. John Marshall told me he apparently just left, but didn’t tell them he was leaving. He called them up from LA, said I’m over here playing with Tony Williams, could you send my stuff over for me, or something like that….

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Shankar and Gingger

December 6, 2004

News, Shankar and Gingger

Shankar and Gingger

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In 2004, Shankar & Gingger composed, produced and performed vocals and double violins on Mel Gibson’s “The Passion Of The Christ”, along with composers Jack Lenz and John Debney. Their voices and violins can be heard throughout the movie providing the haunting melodies and sounds that are unmistakably theirs. They also composed chants which they performed with Mel Gibson.

After their extremely successful pop DVD, “One in a Million”, which topped the charts for 4 weeks, they released “Celestial Body”, a world music album for Mondo Melodia / Universal, which was met with enormous critical praise. They are following the release with a worldwide tour. In September, 2004, Shankar & Gingger received the World Peace Music Award during a performance featuring the Black Eyed Peas and Lionel Ritchie.

For more information visit www.ShankarAndGingger.com. Their new pop album and DVD are due out early in 2005.

AL: Your pop DVD, “One in a Million”, has been hugely successful, topping the Billboard Charts for 4 weeks. Has the popularity of that DVD and resultant album sales given you more power in the music industry to pursue even more ambitious projects? If so, like what?

S&G: “One in a Million” certainly gained us a lot of attention because of its incredible success, but we have always felt that we are asked to join in special projects because of the artistry we have always strived for, and the message that our music carries. We have always been true to what we believe in and stand for, and our music has always reflected that. As long as we are Artists in the true sense of the word (writing music for ourselves, and what we believe we can do to inspire those around us), we do projects that communicate that sentiment. We work with artists who are inspiring, passionate, and really do justice to what they are trying to accomplish.

AL: “One in a Million” and “Celestial Body” are two very different albums. How has the response been to “Celestial Body” compared to the response that you received on “One in a Million” ?

S&G: The response from our audience has always been incredible. People are always open and appreciative. We get such awesome letters from our fans about how a particular song touched them, or got them through a really tough time, or that they saw us at a show and they loved it and were coming to another show in a totally different city because they had to see us again. That’s always the best part, to be able to perform for the audience, to hear how your music can have an effect on someone else, or inspire them. We love meeting little kids at shows who say they are taking voice lessons or violin lessons, and that they want to perform like us when they get older. It’s such a great feeling. The responses to “Celestial Body” and “One in a Million” were both incredible. Our reviews have been incredible as well, which is always nice. That has never really factored into anything that we do, though. You can never go by reviews, you always have to go by what you want to do creatively and artistically.

AL: What was it like to work with Sivamani on “Celestial Body”? Are you working with him on any other projects?

S&G: We have worked with Sivamani for a long time. He is a very talented percussionist, who is on the verge of worldwide fame. We always love working with him, since he is so talented, and such a colorful character. He performed on “Celestial Body”, and we are currently working on our next pop album and DVD, which he is performing on as well. He is also touring with us worldwide.

AL: What can you say about the differences between “One in a Million” and “Celestial Body”?

S&G: “One in a Million” is more of a pop album. It is a very vocal album, with double violin atmospheres and solos. It also has some soundtrack qualities. It is a very positive album with lyrics that were personal and written to give people hope as well as make them think. From Fear which deals with getting over all the things in life that hold you back because you are too afraid to go after them, to I’ve Been Waiting which deals with moving on with your life, before it’s too late, all the songs were written during a period of time that we had a lot of things happening at once. Even one of our songs Out of My Mind, was written about this very persistent fan (stalker) who was always in every city we were, and very pushy. That was pretty scary! We had some very special guests on the album including Phil Collins, Mike and Steve Porcaro, Tony Levin, Guy Allison, David Paich, Steve Vai and Steve Lukather. This album was such a blast to make and to get all these artists that we love was perfect.

“Celestial Body” is more of a ‘world music’ record. It is a very orchestral record. It features a lot of Indian and Western Classical influences, as well as some soundtrack pieces (the kind of music that we compose and perform for our soundtrack projects, such as “Passion of the Christ”.) It has a lot of technical double violin pieces, a lot of atmospheric vocals and violins, as well as some deeply personal songs. Open Your Eyes deals with a very dark part of life, and Palaces was a song that was written for all the children of the world. That song was performed during the Amnesty International Tour, as well as Nelson Mandela’s 80th birthday celebrations. It is a very special song which we also performed at the World Peace Music Awards in September to benefit all the Orphans of Terrorism.

AL: How was the double violin created? What was the idea behind creating your own unique instrument?

S&G: The double violin was designed around the time I did my album “Touch Me There”, which was the first album for Frank Zappa’s label (Zappa Records), which he produced. I overdubbed all different instruments, violin, viola, cello, double bass, etc. It was alright to overdub all these instruments in the studio, but to take them on tour and mic each instrument would be very difficult. I thought about how I could build an instrument with all these instruments combined into one. I built a cardboard version of it and took it to several guitar companies, but they all said it wouldn’t work. I finally went to a shop who’s owner believed in it, and he worked with me until it was built.

AL: Can both necks be played simultaneously?

S&G: Yes, you can play both necks at the same time.

AL: How has the double violin helped you musically? Have you been able to accomplish more than you could have with a regular violin?

S&G: The double violin has enabled us to progress much further musically. Because of the wide range of the instrument, sometimes we orchestrate parts, like we created on “Celestial Body”, where you have the whole orchestral range on the record. Sometimes, we play whatever feels right. A lot of it has to do with our vocal ranges as well. Since we both individually have 5 1/2 octave vocal ranges, the instrument compliments our vocals incredibly. Whether its the highest or lowest vocal note, the double violin can compliment the sound.

AL: Do you find it very different writing music for film, opposed to writing music for your own records?

S&G: Writing for film is challenging and different from creating our own records, but we love to do film work. In film or TV scores we’re presented with a visual on the screen and we write and perform to enhance and reinforce the screen drama working in collaboration with the music supervisors, music director and sometimes the producer. The goal is always to support the artistic vision on the screen with our musical concepts. When we create our own recordings the screen is just our minds and we try to imagine what our listeners will see on their minds’ screen as they listen to our work. They’re different, but they’re both about transferring our art to the listener and evoking emotion, thought or making a connection. We have always been performing artists as well as recording artists. We have always written music according to what has inspired us, whether it is a film, or anything else.

AL: I know you contributed significantly both to “The Last Temptation of Christ” with Peter Gabriel as well as the two of you composing music for Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of Christ”. What was the experience like working on “The Last Temptation”?

S&G: Martin Scorsese actually heard a song that I (Shankar) had written for my own album, and loved it. Not only did he want to use the song in his film, but he wanted 12 more tracks like it. Peter and I co-wrote 12 more tracks for the movie. It was an amazing soundtrack, the first of its kind. Musicians from all over the world performed on it.

AL: Like “The Last Temptation of Christ” was all the music you contributed to “Passion of the Christ” based on ragas (Ancient Indian scale formations)?

S&G: Yes, it was completely raga based. We used more than 75 ragas on the film, some that were created especially for the film. We would go through different ragas with Mel. Sometimes he would feel that a raga was too dark, and he wanted hope in the scene, so we would choose one that was brighter. Other times, he would say that it was too beautiful, so we would choose one that brought more tragedy into the scene. Mel utilized our vocals primarily. All the anguish and torment, as well as the hope and love was expressed through our vocals. They said that they had never heard any two vocalists who brought in the range of depth and emotions that we did. The double violins were used to compliment and accompany our voices throughout the movie. The instruments provided a haunting, almost other worldly sound to the film.

AL: You worked with John Debney on “The Passion of Christ” soundtrack. How did you two work with him?

S&G: John is a brilliant composer who knows how to combine themes with wonderful orchestrations. We worked with John and Mel in LA and London. We brought our own individual experiences to the table, and were able to create something beautiful and unique by combining our ideas. We were able to create compositions individually and together. It ended up being a beautiful and haunting soundtrack, and John is a very talented composer. It was a lot of fun working with them in the studio.

AL: Shankar, you’ve played successfully in a variety of genres, among them, Classical, World, Jazz and Pop. How do you approach performing for each genre? Do you come to the table with a sort of preconceived mindset if performing on, say, a record for Sting than you would if performing with Jan Garbarek? Or do you just respond to the music as it’s happening?

S&G: Each of these projects should be approached separately according to whether they are songs (with lyrics), instrumental, soundtrack, live performance, or studio recordings. You can bring so much spontaneity, freshness, depth, emotion and character to each one. It is a very personal thing. There is no ‘one way’ to do it. Some of the great Artists I’ve worked with brought out the best in me, and hopefully I did the same. You have to grow constantly, there is so much to it, it is like a deep ocean.

AL: More so than many other Indian musicians, you’ve performed with quite an impressive roster of leading pop / rock musicians. Who has been your biggest influence?

S&G: My influences have been some of the great actors such as Sir Lawrence Olivier, Marlon Brando, Katherine Hepburn, Betty Davis, Robert DeNiro, Meryl Streep, and Jack Nicholson, to name a few. My first passion has always been acting. I studied it for a few years in Hollywood with a great drama teacher. I am awed by the great actors who within a split second can portray totally different characters. I hope I can fulfill my dreams as an actor one day. Music is very similar to that. Some of the great musicians I’ve worked with have similar qualities as these great actors. You have to become one with it. They are never afraid to let go.

AL: Gingger, tell me more about your background. I know you grew up in LA and your mother helped you study vocals and violin, correct? Where else and what else did you study?

S&G: I was born and raised in Los Angeles. We have musicians, writers and artists in our family. My mother, Viji, was a singer, my grandfather was a violinist, that is where my initial training began as a child. I was taught at a very early age that music was an integral part of my life. I grew up thinking that it was so normal to play music, write music. I have been to concerts since I was a baby, music has surrounded me all of my life. I started singing before I could speak (according to my mother), and I started playing the violin as soon as I could pick one up (without dropping it!!). I was taught to practice every day, no matter what, and that stays with me even today. My Mother always taught me that you don’t get anywhere without hard work and constant devotion to your art.

AL: According to what I’ve read, you’ve been trained in opera vocal, western classical, piano, pop and world music? Please tell me more.

S&G: Even though my early years were based on Western classical and Indian classical training, I started involving myself in piano, opera and pop music training as well as acting and drama. I always listened to the Beatles, Bach, Beethoven, Elton John, Stevie Nicks, Stevie Wonder, and many others. My mother made sure I was always exposed to all musical styles, we would go to the Hollywood Bowl one night, and an Indian concert the next. I love all different styles, and have always incorporated them into my art. That is why I have been involved with world music as well as pop/rock.

AL: What have been some of your musical influences?

S&G: My main musical influences have been whatever is happening in my life. I also love collaborating with different artists. It is always incredible to see what kind of music can be created when you bring in artists with different musical backgrounds and life experiences. When you become influenced by the artist you are working with, and they become influenced by you. It is almost an out of body experience, getting caught up in the music, no inhibitions, just music being created.

AL: How did you come to play the double violin, was it before or after you and Shankar met?

S&G: Shankar and I started working together about 9 years ago. We first performed together in Peter Gabriel’s WOMAD shows in Spain. The collaboration was really incredible, and it was great to work with someone who had worked in world music and pop / rock as well. I was singing at that point, but Shankar had created a double violin, which combines the whole range of the orchestra (double bass, cello, viola, violin). He gave me one of these beautiful instruments to play. To be able to produce such a variety of sounds from one instrument is unbelievable.

AL: Gingger, what was entailed in learning how to play the double-neck violin? What were some of the main challenges you faced when first learning it?

S&G: Since there were two necks, even playing it was tricky. I had to learn the technique of playing both necks at the same time, as well as learning all the things the instrument could accomplish, in terms of harmonies, sympathetic strings, etc.

AL: Did you ever consider a career in modeling or in Bollywood?

S&G: I have always had a desire to act (maybe its the drama queen in me!!) I took drama in school, that has been something I have always loved. When Shankar wrote music for the “Queen of the Damned” film, one of the composers suggested that I should do a screen test for the movie. I ended up going to Warner Bros for a screen test, and I heard back that the director loved it. I was so excited, until I realized that I had a prior commitment with concerts in India. I was so disappointed! I think acting is something I would love to pursue, as long as it is worthwhile. I am a huge fan of Mira Nair, as well as Martin Scorsese and Spike Lee. There are also some great young up and coming filmmakers who are doing incredible movies. If something like that ever came up, I would do it in a heartbeat.

AL: Please talk about your recent involvement in the independent film project, “Born Into Brothels”. It received rave reviews and won some very prestigious awards from the Sundance Film Festival.

S&G: It is an incredible film. The children of prostitutes in India were given video cameras and asked to film their lives and surroundings. It is a very gritty, truthful look into their world. It is a beautiful project. Some of our music was used in the film.

AL: What are some of the projects you’re currently working on separately or together?

S&G: We are touring Asia in January and February, followed by a tour of Europe and the US. We are also currently finishing our new pop record and DVD. They will be released next year. We are also involved with some very special charity projects, including Save The Children India. We are doing two benefit concerts for them February in Mumbai, and Bangalore.

AL: You have performed at The Concert for Global Harmony, Nelson Mandela’s 80th Birthday celebrations, Artists Against Apartheid, Amnesty International’s Human Rights Tour, Fiddlefest, a benefit for the Harlem Center For Strings at the Apollo Theater, and you recently won a World Peace Music Award, considered to be the musicians Nobel Peace Prize. What do you think that your music has represented over the years? Do all these causes and benefits you have supported represent you as human beings?

S&G: We have always conveyed a message of peace and humanity in all our music. It is a very difficult time right now around the world, and the more we can do to help the better. We have always tried to help with important causes, our greatest inspiration has always come from great leaders such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa and Nelson Mandela. These are people who fought every day of their lives to make the world better. We have always used our music to convey our feelings and support our causes. We are always involved with causes of children around the world who don’t have enough. Our goal is to really make a difference, in whatever way we can.

For tour dates, cities and further information, please visit http://www.ShankarAndGingger.com.

Artistic Management for Shankar & Gingger is provided by Sabre Entertainment who can be reached through info@SabreEntertainment.net.

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Jeff Babko Interview

December 5, 2004

Jeff Babko, News

Jeff Babko

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From supporting James Taylor to entertaining television audiences on ABC‘s Jimmy Kimmel Live, Jeff Babko has, at his young age, already had a varied musical career.

Talk to almost any musician out of Los Angeles, and they rant and rave about Jeff. Rightfully so, because he is one most promising keyboardists out there. A musical collaborator with Mike Landau, Simon Phillips, Jeff Richman among many, Jeff has just released his first record as a composer – “Broject” and it is surely one of the hottest albums this winter. We recently talked to Jeff.

AL: You have had the chance to perform and excel with studio greats such as Michael Landau and Steve Lukather. You have toured with Toto and even substituted for Larry Goldings in the James Taylor band. Do you consider yourself just one of the luckiest guys or was there more to this then serendipity?

JB: Thanks, man. This is a complex question– you’re gonna get a complex answer!
Well, you say one of the luckiest guys– luck IS part of it, but there’s more. I mean, I definitely wake up every day and am so thankful for the blessings that have come to my life. So many musicians would love to do what I’m so fortunate to do every day! Sure– a couple things have fallen in my lap, and there are clearly about 4 dozen keyboard players even in L.A. alone that could do what I do– or actually do MORE than what I do! But it’s a combination that I think keeps me working. Probably number one is a complete dedication to making sure I stay passionate about the music. So many guys seem to have gotten lazy or uninspired in their playing– or safe.
I’m probably not a super-technician like Otmaro Ruiz or Scott Kinsey or Steve Weingart– some of my favorite players here in town. But every time I sit down to play, I give 100% of my spirit and attention to the music at hand.
Second of all, it’s probably having a good attitude. I love hanging with all of those guys you mentioned, and we have a great time. You know– who wants a spoiled sport on their gig?
Also… it’s doing your homework. With the James Taylor gig, Larry Goldings was having a new baby and didn’t want to go out for a portion of the tour.
So he sent me board tapes of the show. I played that show through every day and was as prepared as I could be. We had no rehearsal for James’ thing– I just had to go hit it on a gig in front of 4,000 people. With Steve Gadd! Believe me– I was nervous– VERY nervous, but felt prepared. Sometimes I’ll just play the demos or the music I have to learn in my car OVER and OVER again until I’ve internalized it.
Finally, you know, I grew up in L.A. wanting to do EXACTLY what I’m doing! That IS lucky, isn’t it!? But over the years, going to clubs since I was 14 and checking out all of the records I could with Luke, Landau, all the L.A greats– by the time I was of age to collaborate with these guys, I was so familiar with their work that it seemed to click! I mean– with Toto– that was the most surreal– I remember transcribing David Paich’s parts in my parents’ living room when “Toto IV” came out! And there I was– in Oslo, Norway– playing the SAME parts to about 10,000 people. That’s when you feel really blessed, really lucky like you say, and like any hard work and research and love for the music pays off.

AL: The University of Miami and Cal Arts played a big role in your evolution as a musician.

JB: Dave Roitstein at Cal Arts is an underrated master of teaching and sharing his knowledge and soul with students. I can’t say enough about him. I was brought to him when I was 10– I had the good fortune of growing up in a house just blocks from the school. David took a 10 year old on a journey, growing up and maturing musically. He exposed me to things slowly– first through the pop music I understood (including Toto!), and then exposing me to Chick Corea, Charlie Parker, transcribing all this great stuff. Then, he sent me off to U.M. to study with HIS guru: Vince Maggio. Vince has since retired from U.M. but he was the most beautiful solo pianist– and had a great sense of swing. I’ve done my best to apply that to grooving– even in a contemporary setting– grooving with a click, or with a band– doing my best not to rush, etc. The composition teacher at U.M., Ron Miller, is a seriously underrated educator and composer. He has a great concept of modes and chords that is really beautiful. Also at U.M., the hang with the fellow students and teachers, and gigging in Miami– that was a huge experience that I wouldn’t trade for the world. I’ve kept many of the connections I made at Miami, and I’m so thankful for all of them!

AL: How did you end-up playing piano and keyboards?

JB: My dad’s a music teacher and writer. He had a great little Wurlitzer upright piano in his office and you couldn’t keep me away from it. He taught me a little bit at first, and then got me lessons at the age of 5 or so. I feel like the piano chose me– not vice versa! Most musicians I know feel the same way– music’s not the easiest business– but you feel like it’s your destiny– for better or worse!

AL: L.A. musicians often mention your name when talking about the best players in town. You have to have versatility and adaptiveness to get this reputation.

JB: Are you serious?? That’s nice! Who are these people!?? Haha… Maybe my first answer explained a little of that. But I try to keep a really fresh, young head about music– not to lose my love of discovery– new music, concepts, etc. So many musicians– songwriters, players– have taught me and exposed me to so much great music. And I LIKE a lot of different kinds of music. I do a lot of hip-hop sessions. Most of the tracks I play over lately I’ve really been digging. It’s a different kind of thinking– the hip-hop guys. But you try to get inside the producers’ heads and it’s so happening what they’re doing. I don’t think it’s so easy to be versatile if you don’t like different types of things. It won’t sound legit. But wow– how nice that people would say that about me! That’s awesome– I’m definitely touched and honored to be thought of that way.

AL: It took a while to release your first solo project . Could you talk about your musical ideas for ‘Broject’ ?

JB: Actually, officially, it’s my second solo project. “Misfits of Silence” was released when I was about 23. That was a more straight ahead original jazz thing. I’m pretty proud of that, although it was mastered so poorly that the whole album is really quiet. Kinda ruined it. But the music is nice. I may remaster it someday. Thankfully, Simon Phillips really dug it, and it’s part of why I started playing with him, which led to so much else.

Anyway, “Broject” did take a while. too long. Problem was– I wrote about this on my website (www.jeffbabko.com)– I had a concept for what I wanted my next record to be– and the concept kept changing. But at the end of 8 years, I had all this music on tape. And I liked a lot of it! All of it had Toss Panos playing drums. So I picked what I thought kinda worked, and tweaked it, edited it on Pro Tools at home, did some overdubs– made some songs out of some of the long jams. Then, when I was out with James Taylor, Mike Landau expressed interest in mixing it! I was totally honored. That gave me the final impetus to really finish it. Mike was so generous with his time, and did such a nice job making it sound great. Also, Simon really encouraged me to complete it. He said he really dug the music– he really digs Toss, too. It’s tough putting out your own record with no backing. It’s tough to convince yourself to shell out bread for each step– studio time, mixing, mastering, artwork, pressing. And I don’t think– I hope I’m not– an egotist or something– where I want to show off for all these people my hot record! But I felt like people deserved to hear some music– all these other great guys had played on it, too– and it deserved to be heard. So I put all of these convoluted concepts together, and it became “Broject”. I’m happy it’s done!! And I think it turned out to be a really fun listen. I hope!

AL: Who do you draw your influences from when you write music. Are they mostly piano players ?

JB: It’s everything. I could go on and on! With writing– it takes me SO much to actually present a piece of music, no matter how simple, to a band to play. Just 2 days ago I wrote something for a gig that night that I didn’t even present to the guys at rehearsal! So I’m sensitive about my writing. But on “Broject” a lot of it is Toss and myself jamming at his studio and me editing it into a song.
On a song like Yours, that was composed at home– the first half was composed, and then about a year later I discovered it again on my hard drive and finished it. I’m really proud of that song– I like it. Some of the other songs were written on the road, or on a a pad of paper at a coffeehouse, or at my studio at home. I don’t know what directly inspires my writing– probably everything I listen to, or even everything I feel from life experiences.

AL: What has been some of your favorite musical experiences?

JB: So many! I’ve been blessed to have so many amazing experiences. A few I can remember? Well– David Paich’s phone message asking me to sub for him was big! Not very musical, but meant a lot to me! Very surreal! And then, I just remember that Oslo gig– open air to the whole city– and thousands and thousands of people there– to see me playing with some of my heroes. Amazing. I remember J.J., the keyboard tech, leaning over to me and saying, You’ll never forget this. He was right. It was weird starting the piano riff on ‘Hold the Line’ every night, and people are clapping! I’m thinking, It’s not me– I’m just the messenger! I didn’t write it! But that was crazy– amazing. I have cool experiences almost every day, where I find myself grinning from ear to ear. I’d been going to see Brandon Fields’ gigs in L.A. since I was in high school. He always had such killer bands– Walt Fowler, Bissonette, Mitch Forman, Dave Goldblatt, Jimmy Johnson, John Pena– and the gigs would be so fiery. When I started playing with his band, I was super-honored, and it was so surreal to be playing some of that stuff actually ON his band now. Playing with Simon Phillips– there’s a HUGE highlight. That was my first kind of REAL player’s gig. With the real cats. Mitch Forman– another one of my heroes– called me to sub for him on a European tour with Simon. I was floored! I was, at the time, out with Julio Iglesias, pretty miserable. I got Simon’s solo CD, “Symbiosis”, and listened to it over and over and over again. I remember I was doing a video shoot for Julio and just had the headphones on the whole time with Simon’s record. Anyway, Si scheduled a little rehearsal– kind of to audition me. Jimmy Earl was the bass player. I was so nervous to play with the cats, but felt prepared with the music. Simon was happy! That tour, and the following tours, meant so much to me. What a great band– the amazing Andy Timmons on guitar. And Europe– the fans were so wonderful, so sweet and supportive. And Simon believed in me completely. How special is that? Now Simon and Jimmy Earl are two of my good friends, and people I collaborate with often. I see Jimmy every day at the Kimmel show. Those Simon tours were really incredible. The Lukather Santamental experience was crazy, too. What an honor, for Luke to ask me to help arrange all the stuff on the record. I’d been going to see Luke with Lobotomys at the Palomino and Potato for years. And to have him ask me– that was just great. We made a really good record– I’m very proud of it. Great contributions from Edgar Winter and others– that was a special project. Also this Larry Carlton record I’ve been working on. Larry’s playing is actually one of the key elements that bridged my understanding of music from rock / pop to jazz. His playing made so much sense to me. Soulful, with some jazz vocabulary, but also the bends and familiar sounds that rock guitar had. He is so soulful, both personally and musically. His “Last Nite” record meant a lot to me, as did his playing on The Nightfly and on the Crusaders Southern Comfort, which my dad would play around the house when I was a kid! Collaborating with Larry and knowing him is a great, great honor. I could really go on and on– every experience is so special to me.

AL: If you had to make just crazy music who would you have in your band ?

JB: Just crazy, huh? Hmm. Nels Cline on guitar maybe? I played with him in Mark Isham’s band– what an inventive musician. I have ideas of trying to put a keyboard group together. I love what Scott Kinsey does at his gigs, with samples and programming– also he’s such a killer player– and maybe Mitchel Forman, Larry Goldings, Russ Ferrante, Greg Kurstin– who knows? I’m proud to know all these guys, and I have a feeling we could make something a little crazy. Who knows if they’d be into it! I have a band called Shogun Warrior here in L.A. that gets pretty crazy. Toshi Yanagi on guitar, Toss, John Daversa on trumpet and Mike Elizondo on bass. We try to take it left every now and then! Curt Bisquera, Matt Chamberlain, Eric Shermerhorn, Gary Novak, and others have also collaborated on it. It’s a great creative outlet for us– we play once a month at the Potato.

AL: There was a time when legends like Steve Wonder wrote great music like ‘Secret Life of Plantsand Innervisions’ that still are timeless and fresh today. We don’t see to much of that happening anymore.

JB: Yeah– there’s only one Stevie! I had the honor of playing with him earlier this summer and learned of his DEEP, DEEP musicality first hand. He lives, breathes music. He is music! It’s like he’s a deity or something– just one Stevie. He came into rehearsal and just BURNED Too High– fast, with Will Kennedy just burning on a straight ahead groove. AMAZING!! We have to discover someone with Stevie’s dedication and soul– that’s gonna be tough. But there are bands like Radiohead and the Flaming Lips that are pushing the envelope compositionally and production-wise. You may not always dig the result– but they ARE pushing it. Also, a great guy– Lewis Taylor. British R&B guy– his records are pretty deep– compositionally and in production. They’ve been a big inspiration.

AL: You were put in a room with Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock and Joe Zawinul and Steve Wonder. You had 10 minutes to perform for each of them. What would you do ?

JB: Choke! Hard! That’s what I’d probably do. Haha– honestly? Probably what I SHOULD do is just listen to them. If they wanted me to play, they could indicate so. But otherwise, I’d just let the experience take over, and see what happened. It’d be pretty cool though!

AL: What’s next for Jeff Babko ?

JB: Umm… well now I’m about an hour late going to the gym and running some errands before the TV show! That’s honestly what’s next! Haha– but in general– I’ve never known what’s next in store for my career or my life, and all’s been really unexpected and wonderful. I have the TV show every night– we’re on until January of 2006, which is a blessing. Making a living doing this– music– is such a gift. Hopefully collaborate some more with Simon. Jason Scheff has asked me to help him write some stuff for his new project. I’d like to do more songwriting in general. Luke’s also asked me– we’ll see– I’d love to write with him. We wrote one song for the Santamental album– I’m real proud of that. We’ll see, ya know? I’m up for anything!

AL: What is the funniest experience you had backing someone on Jimmy’s show?

JB: Ooh– I probably couldn’t talk about it!! There are lots. We have a segment called Future Talent Showcase with some pretty questionable talent. We’re often holding back some serious smiles during that.

Hmm… but the musicians that sit in with us? I don’t want to get in trouble. A couple have some pretty sad attitudes. No names. But most are so cool– Steve Miller was great, Edgar, George Benson, Jeffrey Osborne, Joe Walsh was awesome. Glenn Tilbrook from Squeeze was really great. The Tower of Power horns were a thrill for me. It’s a fun gig for sure!

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Barry Cleveland Interview

December 5, 2004

Barry Cleveland, News

Barry Cleveland

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Many musicians likely envy Barry Cleveland. He’s a renowned guitarist and composer with four solo CDs to his credit. He’s also an editor at Guitar Player magazine, a post that’s seen him jet across the United States to hang out with the likes of Jeff Beck, Adrian Belew, Eric Clapton and Ry Cooder. In addition, he’s the author of “Creative Music Production: Joe Meek’s Bold Techniques, the definitive tome on the career of legendary ‘60s producer Joe Meek”. To say his career in the music industry is multifaceted and rewarding is an understatement.

“Volcano”, Cleveland’s latest album, finds the San Francisco Bay Area-based musician exploring the nuances of rhythm. Drawing from a varied palette of traditions, timbres and tonalities, the disc bridges the impressionist leanings of his previous releases with a more audacious, kinetic approach. True to its name, “Volcano” is a fiery effort, full of propulsive grooves that are organically integrated into interweaving melodies and intriguing soundscapes.

During the “Volcano” sessions, Cleveland asked his sidemen, comprised of some of the Bay Area’s leading musicians, to rely on intuition when responding to his compositions. With backgrounds in jazz, folk and world music, the stellar cast, which includes bassist Michael Manring, bowhammer cymbalom player Michael Masley and percussionist Michael Pluznick, infused each piece with a myriad of influences and perspectives.

Cleveland’s two-decade association with these musicians ensured positive chemistry and a playful, creative spirit. That vibe can also be found in “Cloud Chamber”, an improvisational collective featuring Cleveland, Manring and Masley that straddles many genres, styles and moods. The band’s maverick and sometimes epic-length explorations are well-represented on “Dark Matter”, its 1998 debut CD.

Prior to “Volcano”, Cleveland released two other noteworthy albums: 1989’s “Voluntary Dreaming” and 1986’s “Mythos”. “Voluntary Dreaming” was an electronics-based album that found Cleveland performing on samplers and synths, as well as electric and acoustic guitars. It built upon the bent represented on “Mythos”, his debut CD released on Larry Fast’s highly-regarded, short-lived Audion label. Mythos took an ambient, layered guitar approach that mirrored the label’s minimalist aesthetic.

We were inundated with material during the early days of the Audion label and a few of the submissions stuck out as being a cut above the rest and Barry’s was certainly one of them, said Fast, a pioneering musician that helped shape the evolution of synthesizers in modern music. What he was writing wasn’t the same kind of repetitive, formulaic thing that a lot of the electronic acts were submitting as demos. Barry’s music was creative and unpredictable. He offered a storyline and it was one that was significantly better than your average mystery novel in which you can figure it out by page three. With Barry’s writing, you couldn’t necessarily determine where it would go next, but it always went somewhere interesting without being jarring. Barry’s music also had a wonderful soundstage and soundscape. There was a certain clarity to it. It was clear he knew what he was doing with his writing and recording. It made for a very nice package. He’s a very talented guy.

“Voluntary Dreaming” and “Mythos” have been out—of—print for years, but “Memory and Imagination”, a new double-CD collection, features most of the material, along with several unreleased pieces. “Innerviews” discussed the new compilation, “Volcano” and Cleveland’s many other musical pursuits in this in-depth conversation.

AP: Tell me about the rhythmic approach you chose for “Volcano”.

BC: Nearly all of the pieces are based on African and Afro-Haitian rhythms and the compositional process began with improvisation. I had been working with percussionist Michael Pluznick for a few years—he played on “Voluntary Dreaming” and I contributed some bits to his “Where the Rain Is Born” CD—and he gave me a DAT of about 30 all-percussion recordings to work with. I spent several months playing guitar along with the DAT, just improvising, and archiving the results on a cassette recorder. Over time, the rhythms became increasingly familiar and my improvisational responses to them more organic. The guitar improvisations were typically fairly far removed from the music that traditionally accompanies these rhythms, yet they were often oddly integrated, occasionally in surprising ways. Sometimes, complete themes or even whole sections would emerge seemingly out of the ether. More often, simple riffs and rhythmic figures would materialize, then be absorbed back into my subconscious, only to reemerge later in mutated forms. Eventually, I chose nine improvisations for further development. Another interesting aspect of the process was that most of the rhythms are associated with a particular god or goddess, and are supposed to embody that deity’s primary characteristics. I chose not to learn what those characteristics were initially, so that the rhythms themselves, rather than preconceptions, would influence the improvisations. Later, when we compared what I’d come up with to the traditional attributions, they matched up surprisingly well.

AP: Describe the choice of sidemen on the album and how their contributions helped shape the music.

BC: Most of the players are people I had worked with previously. I first played with Michael Manring when he participated in an entirely improvised Living Room Concert, recorded at my home by John Diliberto for his Echoes radio program in 1991. I was blown away by Manring’s astonishing technique and polyglot musical aesthetic-he is arguably the greatest solo bassist in the world—so naturally, I gravitated towards him when I began working on “Volcano”. As for Manring’s contributions, I worked out simple bass parts for the songs either on the guitar or a bass synth, and created mock-ups, which I gave to him a few days before the sessions. On pieces such as ‘Makanda’, ‘Tongue of Fire’ and ‘Secret Prescriptions of the Bedroom’, he played pretty much those simple lines, though he also added accompanying parts, usually improvised. On Rhumbatism and Volcano, where I had already filled up the low end with bass synth parts, he just improvised around them. Manring also played some great solos, such as the Ebowed parts on Dervish Circles and Ophidian Waves, and the breathtaking runs on Rhumbatism and Volcano. Norbert Stachel—who was very active in the Bay Area music scene, but has since relocated to New York—became involved after the percussion, bass and guitar parts had already been recorded. Stachel plays all of the instruments in the flute, saxophone and clarinet families, and at the time he used to carry nearly all of them around in the cavernous trunk of an old car. I’d play him the basic tracks for each piece and suggest an instrument to record. After that, we would usually go out to his car, where he would dig around in the trunk until he found something else that might work. In several cases, he chose instruments that I would never have thought of, such as piccolo flute and contrabass clarinet, the highest and lowest of the orchestral instruments, both of which are used on Rhumbatism. Stachel also played the EWI [Electronic Wind Instrument], a woodwind synthesizer, and on Black Diamond Express, he produced the train sound that opens the piece by blowing into a conch shell. I had performed and recorded with Michael Masley for many years. He played a bow hammer cymbalom solo on Tongue of Fire when the album was originally recorded, and on Dark Energy, towards the end. He also played three of his original instruments—Reed Slide, Lakota Slide and Phenix—on Obsidian Night. Masley’s parts were entirely improvised, and he nailed most of them on the first take, which is particularly impressive when you consider that he was recorded in a shower stall to get a natural reverb effect. Lygia Ferra is now a pop singer-songwriter in Los Angeles, but she used to live in the Bay Area. Her part on Secret Prescriptions of the Bedroom was entirely improvised in what she calls Lygian-a language comprised of Italian, Iranian, Yiddish and other vocal sounds. Max Taylor joined her on Dervish Circles, which was originally going to be a vocal duet with actual words based on a poem by Rumi, but which became a real-time improvisation instead.

AP: How do you look back at “Mythos” and “Voluntary Dreaming”?

BC: They are very different recordings, each with its high points and low points. Some of the music is still interesting and engaging, and some of the pieces make me wince whenever I hear them. The music that I still like appears on disc one of the new two-CD compilation “Memory & Imagination”. The title cut on “Mythos”, which runs 20 minutes and takes up the entire second side of the LP and cassette releases, was the culmination of a way of creating music I’d been working on since I was in my teens, and it remains one of my favorite pieces. The basic idea is to record lots of improvised tracks-more than you can possibly use—and find the combinations that work at various points. It is a very labor—intensive way of working, as you have to compare all of the tracks in every combination, but the results can be compelling. In the case of ‘Mythos”, since the piece runs so long, and we didn’t have automation at the time, I would sometimes get almost to the end of the mix and then make a mistake, necessitating having to start all over again. At the time “Mythos” was recorded I had only recently met Michael Masley, and he and I improvised the basic tracks one afternoon at Spark Studios. I played guitar using a violin bow, an Ebow and various other devices-all running through two Revox A77 tape recorders configured for looping—and Michael played bow hammer cymbalom and a small xylophone. After the first pass, I wanted to get a deeper sound, so I slowed the tape down, transposing everything down a few steps and creating some huge guitar and cymbalom sounds. The remaining tracks were recorded using the slower speed as the base, providing a nice blend of timbres. We recorded additional guitar and cymbalom tracks, and later Bob Stohl and Kat Epple added several types of flutes, Lyricon and a variety of bells, cymbals and other light percussion. The other pieces on “Mythos” were more composed and arranged, though some of the solos were improvised. It is somewhat ironic that “Mythos” was released on an electronic music label, as there are no synthesizers on about half of it. When it came time to record “Voluntary Dreaming”, I was still signed to Audion, and I wanted to do something more electronic. I bought a MIDI keyboard with an onboard sequencer, and worked out the basic tracks for the pieces in my home studio. Then I took the sequences into Spark, dumped them into Performer, a computer-based MIDI sequencer, and we assigned the parts to various synthesizer and sampler modules. The synth tracks were then transferred to a 24-track analog recorder and the other parts-percussion, guitar, pedal steel guitar, cymbalom and voice-were added at Spark. I’m still happy with the majority of the pieces on “Voluntary Dreaming”. The album was scheduled for release on Audion, and an early mix of the title cut appears on the second Audion sampler CD, but the label imploded before the project was completed. Fortunately, I got another deal shortly thereafter.

AP: Reflect on the heady days of Audion and getting signed by Larry Fast.

BC: performed at a benefit for WFMU in New Jersey back in 1984, where I met Richard Ginsburg, a DJ with a program called Synthetic Pleasure. I gave Ritchie a tape of “Mythos”, and he not only played it on his program, he offered to send copies to artists such as Brian Eno, Klaus Schultz and Larry Fast on my behalf. I received a very nice letter from Fast saying that “Mythos” was one of the most interesting-sounding projects he had heard in a long time, and that he enjoyed the music, but that he was only an artist and couldn’t really get me a deal. About a year later, Fast was asked to become head of A&R for a new label being started by JEM / Passport Records, which had released all of his “Synergy” album. The president, Marty Scott, wanted to create what he referred to as an electronic Windham Hill, in order to capitalize on the burgeoning new age genre. Fast contacted me and said that he’d like to release “Mythos” on the new label. “Mythos” was one of the first three records released on Audion. JEM took out full page color ads in Billboard, Musician and other mainstream magazines in order to establish the label, so I benefited from the heavy exposure. It also meant that my record got reviewed in quite a few important magazines, which was very fortunate. It was chosen as one of the 25 Best New Age CDs in Stereo Review, alongside such other new age recordings as “Dark Side of the Moon”, and received very favorable press in Option, Jazziz, Electronic Musician, CD Review, among others. Things went very well for about a year. The label signed some great artists, and there were plans to combine Audion with the E.G. Editions label. But when JEM/Passport attempted to merge with Enigma Records, the word got out that there was a lot of funny business with the books, and a few weeks later they were out of business. Audion, Passport and several other sister labels were doing well, but they all went down with the parent company.

AP: Tell me about the distance traveled between Voluntary Dreaming and Volcano.

BC: When I recorded “Voluntary Dreaming”, I wanted to do something more electronic, to fit the format of the Audion label. I played all of the keyboard and guitar parts, and even a little percussion, so the CD is mostly myself and Michael Pluznick, with contributions from other artists on a few of the pieces. When it came time to do the next project, I decided to go in the opposite direction and not use any sequencing or synthesizers. I did wind up using a few synths here and there, but 95 percent of “Volcano” is actual people playing non-synthesized instruments, so it sounds completely different than “Voluntary Dreaming”. I still wrote all of the music, but the contributions from other players were far more extensive and significant than was the case on “Voluntary Dreaming”.

AP: Do you have a specific philosophy when it comes to guitar playing?

BC: try to get unusual and interesting sounds out of the electric guitar, rather than striving to be the next guitar god. Besides using a lot of electronic processing, I also play with an Ebow, a Chinese Erhu bow and a set of Masley Bow hammers designed especially for the guitar. Then, once I have recorded the guitar parts, I often take great liberties in processing them even more, and sometimes what I wind up with is not really recognizable as guitar at all.

For example, occasionally people would ask me why there were so few guitar parts on “Mythos”, or even if there were any guitar parts at all. When I explained that about 60 percent of the sounds on the piece were created using guitars, they would often be incredulous. On “Voluntary Dreaming” many of the guitar parts are more easily identifiable, as the electronic sounds were produced using synths and samplers rather than processed guitar. On “Volcano”, there is a fairly even mix of processed and more conventional guitar sounds. Since the pieces were composed while playing guitar along with the rhythm tracks, and I was usually using clean sounds at the time, I wound up using those same sounds on the basic tracks. There’s a lot of studio funny business on the overdubs, but for the most part, the basic tracks are clearly recognizable as guitar. Also, I wanted to use a wider variety of guitar tones than I had previously, so I played a PRS Custom-24 guitar in addition to my old Les Paul Custom. The PRS gave me a whole new palate of sounds, as well as a whammy bar, to work with. On Disc Two of “Memory & Imagination”, all of the sounds, except for percussion, were produced by guitar-and many of them were very heavily processed, sometimes totally beyond recognition.

AP: Tell me a little about your musical beginnings and pre-“Mythos” projects.

BC: After attending a school band promotion while in fourth grade, I asked my parents if I could take saxophone lessons. My mother didn’t think it was a bad idea, but my father was very much opposed. Many years later, I learned that my father had attempted to play the sax when he was a boy, but that he’d never got much beyond annoying the neighbors. I pursued scientific interests instead—astronomy, entomology, toy rockets, etcetera-until I saw the Beatles and decided that rock star was a potentially more rewarding career choice. I got a ukulele when I was about 11, soon progressed to an acoustic guitar, and about six months later got an electric semi-hollow Japanese instrument. Soon, I was working out all sorts of pop and rock songs. My first live performance was a solo gig at a junior high school happening—it was the ‘60s—where I played a noisy, mostly improvised piece of original music with my amp’s vibrato and spring reverb effects cranked way up. Next, I formed a band with three friends, and we played a lot of Led Zeppelin, Cream, Beck, Hendrix and other heavy guitar-oriented music. By the time I was in high school, I was playing in bars and clubs with much older musicians, and my musical tastes had expanded to include progressive bands such as King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Spirit and Van der Graaf Generator. During my college years, I listened to a lot of ECM jazz-my favorites were Terje Rypdal and Barre Phillips-along with Mahavishnu, Miles, Weather Report, Oregon, etcetera. All of this music influenced my playing to some extent, particularly sonically. By the early ‘70s, I was using tape echo units, spring reverbs, fuzzes, wahs, phasers, flangers and anything else I could get my hands on. We even had a Mellotron in one of the groups I worked with. I also studied electronic music briefly with Larry Austin, where I was exposed to the music of Stockhausen, Subotnick, Schaeffer, Ussachevsky and other pioneers, as well as having a chance to fool around with modular Moog synths, tape loop racks and other esoteric gear. When I left college in 1978, I joined an eight—piece funk and soul band called Devastation. There were three guys up front that sang harmony vocals and played horns, and a guy who played a Hammond B3 and a Fender Rhodes piano. I was part of the rhythm section. We played all over the southeastern U.S. doing mostly one-nighters, and although it was quite an education for a kid fresh out of college, after a year I was sick of touring, so I quit and moved to California. In the early ‘80s, I began learning more about studio recording-producing some radio dramas among other things-and I worked briefly with several groups, including a new age ensemble called Emerald Web, and an improvisational instrumental duo with Michael Masley called Thin Ice. In 1981 I recorded an album called “Stones of Precious Water” that was released on cassette by a small Canadian label a few years later. “Mythos” was recorded in 1984, and was the first project I recorded in a professional studio.

AP: You’re in the unique position of being both a music journalist and artist. How has each experience informed your understanding of the other?

BC: While I was writing for Mix, Electronic Musician and Onstage, I was mostly covering gear and recording, rather than interviewing artists. Since I’ve been an associate editor at Guitar Player, however, I’ve done dozens of artist interviews—though, of course, they are only with guitarists, and tend to focus on music from that perspective. Besides being able to pick the minds of some of the greatest pickers in the world, I’ve become more knowledgeable about how they view music journalists, and I’ve picked up a few interview techniques that I can use. On a more practical level, I’ve come to appreciate the conditions under which music journalists operate-with the exception of those such as yourself, who operate independently of the corporate publishing industry—and that’s made it easier for me to understand why they do many of the things they do. When you’re dealing with extremely tight deadlines, attempting to provide balanced coverage across genres, and trying to keep the newsstand and subscription sales robust, it is necessary to have a very different perspective than you might have as purely a music listener. Conversely, having had my music covered and reviewed by journalists over the years has necessarily provided me with an artist’s perspective, making me generally more sensitive to the artists I write about.

AP: What is your opinion of the state of music journalism today?

BC: Music journalism is typically serviceable and occasionally excellent-but all too often it’s superficial, and in many cases, obviously affected by the restraints of the corporate publishing industry. My personal peeve is when lazy journalists who do not adequately research their subjects, or listen critically to the music being considered, unreservedly offer up half—baked and often sweeping evaluations. My advice to music journalists is to imagine that the artist is there with them in the room, and if their writing is critical of that artist, to be certain that they’d have the balls to read their work aloud to them before publishing it.

AP: The composer Witold Lutoslawski once said: People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports and lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet. What do you make of music as a commercial conditioning device and its effect on the public’s ability to appreciate this art form as a serious endeavor?

BC: There are numerous factors that serve to diminish the average contemporary listener’s ability to concentrate in general, such as stress, diet, exercise, age and physical environment. I’m not sure how you would determine to what extent a particular case is related specifically to background and other programmatic music. And, given that concentrating on-or at least comprehending—Beethoven’s music requires some specialized education, the average listener would probably experience difficulty anyway. That said, I feel that overexposure to information of all types, sonic or otherwise, can lead to numbness and the inability to differentiate the useful from the irrelevant. Viewed from a more positive angle, the use of a wide variety of music in commercials and films, for example, can sometimes be educational. These days, the hunger for ever-more exotic sounds, often culled from the music of distant cultures, can result in the expansion of the listener’s musical awareness. We live in a time when the borders between cultures and societies are becoming less distinct, and we are exposed to a wider variety of music than at any other time in history. One result of this is the emergence of hybrid musical forms that incorporate elements from all over the globe, whether absorbed consciously or unconsciously, and I find that quite exciting. Volcano is an example of this.

AP: What’s coming up for you?

BC: have recently converted my studio from analog to computer-based recording, and I’m exploring the many possibilities that technology provides. I’ve also been doing a lot of work with looping. I’ve stockpiled hundreds of loops that I hope to incorporate into my new works. I have several projects in the works—including a spoken word and music CD with Seattle poet Craig Van Riper and a second “Cloud Chamber” CD-but beyond those, I’m only starting to get an inkling of what’s to come. It’ll most likely be really noisy, though, whatever it is.

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Bill Bruford Interview

December 5, 2004

Bill Bruford, News

Bill Bruford

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Mention the name Bill Bruford to nearly any Prog-Rock, Fusion or Contemporary Jazz aficionado, let alone most drummers, and what you’ll likely encounter is sense of veneration bordering upon reverence. For nearly four decades, Bill Bruford has been coursing his own way in modern music, across a host of varying genres, all the while forwarding his one-of-a- kind approach in each. Both as a drummer and composer of unprecedented talent. Arguably, his curriculum vitae is among the most impressive in the business.

Since most visitors to this website, I’d venture, are either somewhat or very familiar with Bruford’s celebrated career, I’ll eschew a detailed summation at this juncture. One may visit http://www.billbruford.co.uk/bill/bio.html to obtain a synopsis of this drummer’s drummer’s professional milestones.

For the sake of those who may be totally unfamiliar with his (Earth) works, Bill Bruford has consistently played with some of the most proficient, creative ensembles and musicians throughout the world. Among them: Yes, King Crimson, UK, Genesis, Bruford, Gong, Earthworks, and Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe. He has also recorded and / or toured with Patrick Moraz, Kazumi Watanabe, David Torn, Ralph Towner, Eddie Gomez, The New Percussion Group of Amsterdam, Jamaaladeen Tacuma, Akira Inoue, Al di Meola, the Buddy Rich Orchestra, Tony Levin, Pete Lockett and others. In 1990, the readers of Modern Drummer Magazine voted him into that publication’s esteemed Hall of Fame.

I had the privilege of speaking with Bill Bruford over the telephone for nearly an hour in mid-October. Having previously interviewed literally hundreds of music luminaries over the years, for me, this was a dream come true. And true to form, Mr. Bruford was highly articulate, thoughtful, opinionated, and candid. Following is our conversation in its entirety.

AL: First of all, I must tell you that for three decades now, you’ve long been one of my very favorite and most respected musicians. So it’s quite an honor for me to speak with you. Thanks, again, for your time.

BB: Not at all. Not at all. Just trying to do an honest day’s work. Is the tape recorder running okay?

AL: Yes, it’s running fine.

BB: Okay, perfect.

AL: Describe for me your compositional process. Do you use the piano’ Mallet instruments’ The guitar?

BB: The piano is kind of my second instrument.

AL: Did you study piano formally or did you start playing it more once you began composing more frequently?

BB: Both of those. I didn’t write any music at all, and then, I remember Jon Anderson being very insistent saying that there were two kinds of musicians: the ones who wrote music and the ones who didn’t. And clearly the ones who wrote music were more superior human beings in his mind. So he kind of nudged me and sort of prodded me into it. I picked it up slowly. Then I learned more about chords and harmony and I just kept adding to that. One of the great things about having good players in your band is that you just ask them questions. You can pick up some good information that way.

AL: You’ve certainly had some good teachers over the years.

BB: If you keep your ears open and you listen a lot. And if you can have Django Bates or Steve Hamilton correct some of your work and it can sound good, you know. It’ll work out okay.

AL: Some of the melodic lines you’ve written are fairly tricky and are relatively fast. Are you able to execute those on the piano real time?

BB: If it’s fast, no I don’t have enough piano technique. In that case, it’s probably been done on some kind of synthesizer or sequencer. Then the score can then be printed out and so forth.

AL: I’m thinking, for instance, of the melody line in Sample and Hold [Bill Bruford – “Feels Good to Me”]. That was at a fairly rapid clip.

BB: Yeah, I was able to play that on vibraphone or with mallets or something. But no, I think I probably would’ve written that [on piano] slower.

AL: If I’m understanding correctly, when you were first playing with Yes, you didn’t read that well but later on became more proficient at it.

BB: Yeah… But I wouldn’t say I’m a great sight-reader because sight-reading for drums is a fine art. It’s mostly in the jazz world; I grew up with rock and nobody needed to read music in that genre. So to this day I’m a slowish reader because I never had to do it. Had I had to do it, I would have got it more organized.

AL: In other words, had you studied classical percussion.

BB: I did do a little bit there and I was taught to sight-read rhythms as a kid. But the vertical movement on the stave, no. Just the horizontal.

AL: In terms of reading actual notes and pitches, that was a skill you gained later, correct ?

BB: Yes, but I don’t sight-read mallet parts, for example. They’re much easier to write than to read.

AL: Was Five Percent for Nothing [Yes – “Fragile”] the first piece you ever wrote?

BB: Actually I think it was, probably. And that was recorded. So I was lucky to have had things that I wrote in the early stage to be put on record.

AL: Did you contribute compositionally to other ideas with Yes? For example, I remember listening to Close to the Edge and thinking, Bill Bruford probably wrote that part.

BB: Yeah, there were snippets in there. As I said, Jon Anderson pushed me into doing bits and pieces. So I would come up with odd movements of the bass or…

AL: Oh, so you wrote some of the melodic parts as well, not just rhythmic figures?

BB: Yes. Bits and pieces. Riffs mostly. I heard the music from the bottom up: a bass line that could be doubled with the guitar, which would turn into some kind of riff or lead part.

AL: I’ m a bassist, so I know what you mean by writing from the bottom up.

BB: There you go. So bits of Heart of the Sunrise, [Yes – “Fragile”] parts of Close to the Edge. [Yes – “Close to the Edge”]

AL: Did you write any of Siberian Khatru[Yes – “Close to the Edge”]? That’s probably one of my all-time favorite Yes songs.

BB: A little bit. Yeah, I like that tune, too.

AL: Okay, moving on. You made a comment on the Earthworks DVD [Earthworks – “Footloose in NYC”] that these days you consider yourself to be more of a composer than a drummer. What else have you been doing to hone that craft?

BB: Did I say that?

AL: Pretty much…

BB: I think… I think… That sounds a little strange, there being some other context to that. But what I think my emphasis is, is on the fact that I like music a lot. And I like messing around in the engine room of music. Seeing what happens in the rhythm section area. Then, on a scale going down, I like drumming quite a bit and I like drums least of all. Do you see what I mean ‘ It’s the music. I’m primarily interested in and the interaction of the people.

AL: That’s always been evident in your career. One of the reasons I’ve long admired you, quite frankly, is your ability to evolve musically and push your own envelope. Not always from just a technique standpoint, although that’s certainly part of it. But it’s more of a holistic approach.

BB: Yeah, it’s kind of, What should I be doing next? What should we drummers be doing next? Those kinds of questions. What would be a good place for a drummer to look at here? You know, those kinds of things. Ah, here’s an electronic drum. Shall we try those Well, every body does it that way; how about we do it this way? Etcetera. Those kinds of things intrigue me. Kept me interested, I think.

AL: Speaking of drummers and percussionists, over the course of your career you’ve worked with several: Jamie Muir, Phil Collins, Pierre Moerlen, Peter Lockett… What are some of the specific things you’ve learned from any of them?

BB: Whoa…[Sighs] It’s hard, of course. You learn so much about music from all the people you surround yourself with – good, bad and indifferent. It’s extremely hard to be specific. Working with another drummer is great fun because you immediately have a rhythmic counterpoint or counterfoil. And I think the best stuff I did with that in a way was with Pat Mastelotto around King Crimson’s Thrak. And also this guy Pete Lockett is a bit of genius over here. He’s a terrific player.

AL: Yes, he sent me some of his CDs. I’ve been enjoying them very much.

BB: Did you get the first “Network of Sparks” with me on it?

AL: Of course! That’s why I actually purchased that particular album.

BB: Yeah, it’s a great record. He’s a terrific drummer. However, you can investigate rhythm ad nauseum. So nothing specific from the drummers, I don’t think. Other than a great sense of, Well, if you’re going to that, I can do this. And if you do that, that’ll free me to do this. Or if I hold this down this, that’ll free you to do that, you know. So just from working with different people… I find a great pleasure when somebody finds their role in the music and suddenly it all becomes easy.

AL: It seems to me, that when you joined forces with King Crimson the first time around, and were able to work briefly with Jamie Muir, he opened you up in terms of your sonic vocabulary. Either that or when you were with Yes it was somewhat more restrictive, congas with a wah-wah pedal notwithstanding.

BB: Oh that’s very true! I had no idea. I just thought really, that drums were drums and cymbals were cymbals. So a couple of drums and a couple of cymbals and that was the end of your responsibility in terms of tone and timbre and texture, you know. So I didn’t realize there was anything other than that really until meeting Jamie Muir, who could make rhythmic sounds out of all kinds of things.

AL: Even cat’s whiskers or jello…

BB: [Laughs] So it was all part of a huge learning curve.

AL: As I said, having followed your career for all this time; when you joined Crimson it was like, Listen to that! Bruford’s textural palette has really increased!

BB: Yeah, the little gongs, cymbals, steel plates, ratchets and what not.

AL: Speaking of which, how do you make that kind of screechy sound on the steel plate?

BB: Oh, you can just drag drumsticks lightly around things, or bits of styrene or glass.

AL: And that makes that spooky screeeee sort of sound?

BB: [Laughs] All that and more, actually.

AL: Let’s see… I’ve some more questions about Yes, if that’s okay. I heard that at one point, you were so frustrated with Chris Squire that you actually punched him’? What was that all about?

BB: Well, I don’t really remember it. But it was very… I mean, Chris is, I’m sure, a wonderful guy. But in those days he also very, very late. [Pause] For all appointments and departures and arrivals and sound checks and anything.

AL: That’s not very responsible.

BB: That, in a way, is the most grievous form of offense that one musician can visit upon another. Because it’s simply keeping everybody waiting. Like the last guy who enters the room is the biggest guy. So there was a lot of that about him and eventually… you know, I was a hot-blooded guy back then and I’d had enough of waiting for him, really.

AL: I understand you once had to wait hours for him to find the right tone for his bass before rehearsing. You’d taken a nap or something and when you woke up, he was still fiddling with it.

BB: He used to keep Yes waiting for almost everything. And I would guess they are still waiting for everything.

AL: You did go back and work with him with “Fish Out of Water”, had you and he made amends?

BB: I can’t really remember what happened. I’d left Yes in ’72; I guess that record was two or three years later… He called me for that and I said yeah, as long as he wasn’t going to keep me waiting. If I had to go to his studio, that sounded all right to me.

AL: Did you work live with Patrick Moraz for that album, or did he later overdub his keyboard parts?

BB: I can’t remember, I think Patrick was there, probably. Most music was live in those days. But often there would be replaced parts by other musicians. And drummers used to get irritated by this. We drummers had to be perfect on the first go. On the supposition, a number of musical additions would be made. And then, of course, they would replace everything and change everything. So where you had thought there was going to be acoustic guitar then turned out to be symphony orchestra. So of course, many times you ended up sounding silly.

AL: Yes, that could be counterproductive if you thought they were going to play x, then you’d play y. But when that didn’t happen…

BB: Yeah, exactly. Trying to predict months in advance what the final product was going to be like, which is very difficult at times.

AL: Years later, you ended up working with Chris and other members of Yes on the Union tour. What was that like?

BB: Well, the Union tour was pretty horrible, really. I mean it was just a sort of a summer vacation. It was um… fun to do in the sense there were some old pals and it was possible to do because we didn’t have to give rise to any new music. So in as much as the band was just playing repertoire material, there was kind of a ticket buy in the idea of all those, you know, the entire cast of Dallas on stage at once, kind of thing. And there was some ticket buy kind of attraction to that. But that was really all it was, I think. And I think I was probably an unnecessary spare part. So I didn’t enjoy it terribly. But those gigs can be quite fun as performing in huge stadiums can be quite fun on a kind of purely visceral level. Just kind of being there and enjoying it. I don’t venture, however, you’d want to give up your day job to do it.

AL: Did you enjoy drumming with Alan White?

BB: A little… a little. I mean Alan did what he did and I tried to fit in around him somewhere, but very difficult.

AL: I was curious because there was very cool duet that you two did in 7/4 and I remember thinking, Bill Bruford probably wrote that.

BB: That’s possible… Me and Alan was it? Yeah, that’s quite possible. Yeah, I always felt quite comfortable in odd meters, as a matter of fact. I could always find something to do in seven or five or nine or something rather than 4/4, which I found harder to play in.

AL: I agree. You taught me well, Sir. I love odd meters. What was it like to play on some the Yes material you hadn’t performed on before? I’m thinking in particular of songs like ‘Awaken’. Parts of it are in 11/8.

BB: I enjoy absorbing new material. I wasn’t there of course, when the thing was given birth to. So I came to it kind of fresh. This is the way it goes and you just take it on board for what it is and try to bring the music to life as much as possible. And I like that and I like having to absorb new information fairly quickly. So it was quite fun, yes, and I thought Trevor Rabin’s kind of rock songs were pretty good. They may not have been Yes material, but I’d long since given up caring about that kind of thing.

AL: Let’s go back to Peter Lockett’s Network of Sparks project for a moment. I’ve long been a fan of Indian Classical music and some of the East/West fusion projects that have been happening over the years. So hearing you play with tablas for the first time was a great experience. Bill Bruford and tablas ? I’m in heaven! What was it like for you and what did you learn from that experience?

BB: [Laughs] Difficult. Difficult. You’re eyes are open very quickly to the complexities of Indian music, and the way that classical system of rhythm is deeply engrained in India. Peter is something of a leading authority here in the UK. He’s one of the few Caucasian musicians who’s kind of invited to India regularly to play with some of their best tabla players.

AL: Oh, I didn’t know that.

BB: He also knows quite a bit about drum set, too.

AL: It’s time I interviewed him as well.

BB: Tabla and drums do work together. But it’s a peculiar… the origin of the two is so disparate, the Western drum kit coming up through the military, dance and jazz music. Versus the long, established classical Indian rhythmic system, makes for a strange combination of percussionists. I loved doing it. I wasn’t sure about the outcome at all – whether I’d particularly like it or not – but that doesn’t bother me, either. Whether or not I particularly like something doesn’t bother me.

AL: How do you think it came out in hindsight?

BB: Well. Very well. And beautifully recorded, I think. Although I don’t know the appeal, necessarily, of all-percussion records to people. Maybe they only sell to other percussionists, I guess. But it was certainly great fun doing it.

AL: I know Indian rhythm utilizes, as you do quite frequently, odd and compound meters. Were you able to take any of rhythmic theory of playing talas and incorporate it into your own playing?

BB: Somewhat. Yeah, people explained quite a bit to me. But I think Steve Smith has probably gone further than I have. And he’s hanging out with Zakir Hussain a lot. So I think as a Western rock / jazz guy he’s probably further down that road than I am. I haven’t pursued it much more since working with Pete.

AL: But that would be an interesting genre to explore further.

BB: Yeah, it would be.

AL: For instance, there are a couple of Indian musicians who are playing both Indian percussion and drum set. Of course, there’s Trilok Gurtu and there’s another guy, who’s yet to make a name for himself among Western drummers… Have you heard of Shivamani?

BB: Mmmm no; that’s not a name I’m familiar with.

AL: He’s played with John McLaughlin’s Remember Shakti project, particularly on their last album.

BB: Oh yeah. And he’s a drum set player, is he ?

AL: He can play drum kit as well as indigenous Indian percussion instruments.

BB: Great, great.

AL: And there’s a Spanish guy, too. Have you heard of Tino di Geraldo?

BB: No.

AL: I’m going to have to make a list for you.

BB: You know all the guys here. I listen less these days. I’m obviously not as good a listener as you are. I find just staying abreast of current developments quite time-consuming more often than not. After days of answering emails, somehow listening to more new material, I find to be quite hard work. But this has partly to due with the fact there’s so much music around. I’m tiring with it maybe. But perhaps you have an endless thirst.

AL: Yeah, I guess it goes with being both a music journalist and musician; to always be open. I’m perpetually searching for that next great thing that’ll jettison me to new level of musical insight or understanding.

BB: Yeah, sure. Sure. However, I find these days that my thirst is easily quenchable.

AL: Was that always so?

BB: No. Increasingly it is the case. It’s because my piano groans with unsolicited material of some sort or another. It’s because every body wants an opinion on some thing or another, usually their latest efforts, of course. It’s because the sheer exhaustion involved in trying to sell this commodity of music to any body, which requires so much time and energy now.

AL: Particularly with your new labels, SummerFold and WinterFold?

BB: With any labels, absolutely. With the two new labels I’ve created, sure. And at the end of the day, I tend to think, Enough already, as it were.

AL: So what do you do when you’re not doing music?

BB: Oh, God!

AL: Do you have any particular hobbies, extracurricular interests?

BB: Well… are you a father?

AL: No, I’m not.

BB: Okay. Well, let me tell you about children: They take time.

AL: How old are your children now?

BB: Well, I have three children. You’d think they’re grown up and therefore you’d think they must take less time, but not really. It’s amazing. We’re quite a close family. I have a 27-year old, 25 and 17.

AL: Was it tough for them when you were off and about, traversing the world on tour?

BB: Not at all. Nope. Kids don’t mind it as long as fathers come back when they say they’ll come back. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been gone for, just so long as you come back the day you say you will.

AL: They’re not all living at home now, I presume.

BB: No, only one is, the 17-year old. I also have two acres of English country garden here, which needs a lot of maintenance.

AL: And you take care of that yourself?

BB: Uh, huh. And I like to read a book once in a while. So I have no problem doing things outside of music at all. The problem, I think, these days for us guys is the 24-hour global shop.

AL: Because somebody’s always awake and wanting you to do something for them?

BB: Er… yes, and there’s always the feeling that you should really either be practicing or you should really be selling a CD to somebody in Bangkok. Or answering emails.

AL: And they say email is supposed to save time… Yeah. Right.

BB: Oh, you’re kidding me! I mean the workload has quintupled since the computer arrived on my desk. And, you know, it’s the same for everyone. No complaints, mind you. But it means that my desire to get excited about music is less edgy than it was.

AL: Well, maybe with your permission, I could find a few gems that would ignite some interest.

BB: Oh, I probably have plenty I could find that would ignite… it’s all sitting on my piano. I just don’t think I need any more music. But this is also a message that the Western world is giving out with its pop, you know. It’s saying, Look. Stop. We already have all the songs we possibly could ever have. I feel that quite strongly in a way. Every record company slams every door that’s ever possible. Clearly, any musician gets the idea from them that, We don’t really want any more music.

AL: Or maybe they don’t want your music.

BB: Er… Maybe.

AL: Please don’t misconstrue that as a negative comment about your music, Bill. Because if I was a label I’d be beating a path to your door knocking. But particularly here in America, it’s a very depressing scene in the commercial music industry: Barbie-like pop stars, misogynic rap, rehashed classic rock or alternative rockers, who, while many think they’re doing something new, are just rehashing with more angst what was done before. There’s rarely any room for a mature musician / artist.

BB: That’s right. That’s right. And that’s no different in the West, in general, I think. And to make some headway in that, you do need the most phenomenal stamina. Even assuming you’re a good musician. And we have that, and there are plenty of them. And of those, a very small percentage will have something interesting to say. Okay, that reduces it quite a bit. And of those who are good musicians who have something to say, who also have to have the required stamina to bring that… musical endeavor to the public consciousness, it’s something. It’s something. To rise to the top, the guys who rightly rise to the top, who deserve to be there, are the strongest guys.

AL: There are only a few handfuls at the most; which is really a very small percentage, all in all.

BB: Yeah. That’s right. And many of the guys at the top today are older guys, because they were able to get a footing when it was a more tolerable kind of world.

AL: And less commercially driven.

BB: For example, Joe Zawinul is a top guy, but he started so long ago…

AL: He was making a mark back in the ’60s.

BB: Exactly. But to rise to the surface now is very difficult. So my heart goes out to the younger players.

AL: Although, some of the younger musicians have been able to jump aboard the smooth jazz bandwagon that’s being promulgated in the marketplace and airwaves these days.

BB: Maybe.

AL: I don’t know if it’s as popular on that side of the Atlantic as it is here, but it’s become one of the few viable markets for contemporary jazz artists these days.

BB: No, it’s not as popular in Great Britain nor is it as popular in Europe in general. Jazz has now become a female singer, by definition. Any instrumentalist is kind of out of the water right now.

AL: My, we’ve come so far…

BB: Yeah, kind of full circle, really. And I have to, on a daily basis, interface with that kind of industry. And it is… very tiring. As I said, no complaints. But I shall tell you that it’s tiring, as I’m sure you’d understand.

AL: Doesn’t the Internet give you the ability to reach your specific niche, which you perhaps weren’t able to do so before’ Now you can direct sell to any one interested in obtaining your music. Right online.

BB: Hmmmm… Er, yes… There’s something… to that, and that… can be nice. I mean it sounds as if I’m hesitant… But that’s great. Of course, the much vaunted kind of interfacing with the audience is again, very time consuming.

AL: You must have a staff that takes care of orders, etc.

BB: Yes, in terms of orders. Yes. That’s okay. But … the relationship between the consumer, if you like, or listener and the artist now is that the artist just doesn’t produce the music. The artist is now required to do a whole aftercare service, of What kind of drum sticks do you use? And How do you play the drums? And the rest of it, down to email. So to a degree, the contract now is, Well, I bought your CD, but now I’d like to tell you my life story. And that’s very difficult. So a certain distance, if we’re going to get any work done here at all, a certain distance has to be maintained between the artist, whoever that may be, or in my case, me… and the endless amount of signing and questions and so forth that come with the territory these days.

AL: You need time and space to be creative.

BB: Again, I don’t wish to sound complaining in the slightest and you must ensure it doesn’t sound complaining. A lot of people misunderstand, I think, how musicians go about things, why they go about things, why they even… you know, how people get the music they do get.

AL: And that methodology is certainly changing, too. Let’s move on a bit… I spoke with a drummer acquaintance of mine, Shlomo Deshet, who heads up a very cool world jazz group in Israel called ESTA. He asked me to ask you about your creative process. In terms of composing, how does that work for you’ For some it flows naturally, others have to painstakingly ponder every note…

BB: Oh, I’m pretty regular, I would think. It’s about 3% spark of inspiration and about 97% perspiration, in bringing it to reality. I find it very hard work because you feel you’ve heard everything before. If not from somebody else than from yourself. And I write really only as an excuse to get other guys in a room and get them playing. You know, all I want to do really is to get them playing. But to fill a room full of musicians and… The way to start it is to fill a room full of musicians and for that, you’re really obliged to have something for them to play. So mine is only an excuse. My writing or, so called compositions are only an excuse to get people going. To hear the sound of a band, to be in the middle of a band that’s playing the kind of music I like. So that’s lovely. And if you can do it, if you can control that, it’s great. In the course of which, you can device rhythmic scenarios and audio scenarios in which you flourish and shine and which sound good. And hope the other people will sound good, too. So that’s why I do it. It’s certainly not because I have some vision of how music should go in any particular way.

AL: Really’ Now that comes as a surprise. I always thought you did.

BB: Well, I have a sense of what could be interesting to do on a drum kit. And then I try and provide other guys around or invite other people in on that particular pleasure with me. But to do that I need some kind of a framework or composition.

AL: I think some of your melodic and harmonic ideas are very sound as well, and show a lot of creativity on your part. They’re not just embellishments, if you will, for your rhythmic ideas. Many others, I know would and have already agreed. Downbeat magazine has repeatedly hailed your compositions as well as your drumming. Other publications have also.

BB: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And hopefully it’s all about something. I think to try to have – and I think all musicians need to have these days — before they embark upon this exhaustive process of making a CD. Well, the process of making a CD may be a breeze but the bit that comes after it is going to exhaust you, whatever way you look at it. Before they embark on this, they need to have a pretty fair sense of what their CD is about. If there is one thing that I get too often, they are CDs from young musicians that cover all the basses, you know. The worse of them is the one with, Here’s the reggae track. Here’s the kind of funk thing. There’s a bit of a rap thing. And now we’ll do a jazz / fusiony thing followed by a ballad.

AL: I once had to write a review of an album like that. They were good players, mind you, and they could emulate those styles to a T, but they hadn’t yet discovered what it was that made them tick as a unit.

BB: Right. That’s a classic case. Of all the misunderstandings that young musicians have when they start making these CDs… We don’t want a resume of all the things they can do. We want a CD about something. About a particular viewpoint. That jazz should go this way, or that rock music should go that way, or that rap should be done like this. Whatever. But it has a viewpoint. And various pieces of music should only be included on the CD in as far as they sharpen that viewpoint.

AL: That are an integral expression of it.

BB: Yeah. In as much as they dissipate from it or leak energy from it, than it’s a no go area. Typically, I get a lot of CDs with music kind of sprayed all over it, hence nobody really knows what it’s about at all.

AL: People send you these CDs for possible review, feedback or production?

BB: [Sighs] Oh yeah, all that. For some reason, people seem to think that I need CDs. But in reality I’m actually the last guy who needs them. So as a footnote to your article, please say no further unsolicited material, please. [Laughs]

AL: Attention Readers: Don’t send Bill Bruford any more CDs. Thank you.

BB: Yeah, it’s not fair… And that little phrase that people say so often, Just give this a listen and let me know what you think. That’s a three-hour round trip right there.

AL: Yes, it can be.

BB: Because you need to listen to it a couple of times, and then consider it, and then write something. And that’s not easy.

AL: Welcome to my world, Bill.

BB: Yeah. Maybe you get paid for it.

AL: It depends for whom I’m writing the review.

BB: [Laughs] Although I definitely don’t.

AL: I must say, that within the past four to five years, I’ve been fortunate to discover a some great world/jazz fusion out there, for lack of any other designation. And if you know where to look, or you’ve been fortunate enough to have something serendipitously fall in your lap, there’s some wonderful music out there. Really incredible.

BB: I agree! Some absolutely great stuff. A lot of it is in Europe, too.

AL: Exactly. Paris is a real hot bed for it right now.

BB: Yeah, and at a lot of jazz festivals across the continent. You know, jazz doesn’t have much meaning here in any kind of high profile market sense. So what’s happening is that the jazz guys and the world guys have gotten together really.

AL: And they’re doing some amazing things.

BB: Yeah, there’s some remarkable projects out there. Absolutely stunning music, I think. Do you know the group from Barcelona, Ojos de Brujo?

AL: Oh, yes. I’m very familiar with their work. They’ve recently won all sorts of European world music awards.

BB: Great! What a band!

AL: A few years ago I wrote a major feature story for Bass Player magazine on The Bassists of Flamenco. There are some great Nuevo Flamenco artists out there. Not just the commercial rumba groups like the Gypsy Kings or Engergypsy, but some really forward-thinking musicians and exceptionally imaginative projects.

BB: Yeah. Absolutely. It’s stunning. Great rhythmic stuff. Some thoughtful material and maybe some jazz guys, and maybe a guy with a couple of decks just rapping away. Really interesting approach.

AL: There’s a group, Amalgama, that came out only with one album. Some Flamenco / Jazz guys with percussionists from the Karnakata College of Music. The album is called “Encuentro”.

BB: Iain Ballamy, a saxophone player I used to work with, did some things with the Karnakata College of Music.

AL: There are two musicians whom I’m still going to recommend you check out, even though you said you’ve full plate already. They’re both in Paris. Do you know of the guitarist/composer Nguyen Le ?

BB: Yep. He’s doing that Hendrix thing right now.

AL: Yeah, the album is called “Purple”. It’s a world jazz take on Hendrix’s material. Very cool. But a few years ago he did an album with the Algerian drummer, Karim Ziad entitled, Maghreb and Friends. It’s quite unique. You really ought to hear it.

BB: The last time I heard him was in a trio hear in London, with Peter Erskine on drums and a bass player. It was very nice. Yeah, he’s much in demand around here.

AL: Well, he should be. Along with you, he’s one of my favorite artists.

BB: Yeah, he’s very good. Vietnamese guy.

AL: I know you’ve said you’ve heard a lot of music, but you owe it to yourself to check out this album. For me, it was a revelation of sorts.

BB: These suggestions are always interesting. And in fact, I’m just writing it down, Maghreb and Friends.

AL: Right. It’s on the ACT Music label out of Germany.

BB: Yeah, they’re producing a lot of good stuff.

AL: Then there’s another Frenchman who’s played with Nguyen Le … Talk about… Well, he reminds me a lot of you, quite frankly, in that he’s a brilliant instrumentalist and an amazing composer. The European press has hailed him as being the Paganini of the Double Bass, in fact. Have you ever heard of the 5-string contrabassist Renaud Garcia-Fons?

BB: No, that’s not a name I know.

AL: Bill, you definitely need to check this guy out. His compositions are extremely well crafted, and his playing is beyond belief. His most recent album, “Entremundo” is more Flamenco-based. The one before it, “Navigatore” features him multitracking his 5-string contrabass, both arco and pizzicato, as well as using a 22-piece orchestra featuring all sorts of instruments from around the world. It’s profound. So he’s using sounds and stylings both from the West and East. He composed, arranged, and produced it all himself.

BB: Really’ That sounds great.

AL: I think you’d really like it.

BB: I’m writing that one down, too. But, you know… I know it’s fun to chat about names and stuff, but… what I’m partly hearing here and I’m beginning to feel is that there are walls going up all around the United States.

AL: That’s absolutely true. Particularly for world artists to tour here.

BB: Especially post 9/11… You know how hard it is to get work permits to come and visit your lovely country?

AL: I’m a former concert promoter so yes, I certainly know how difficult it is.

BB: Okay. Well it’s hard work and it’s costing me a thousand dollars per guy to get into the States.

AL: I know. There are some fairly well-established world music ensembles who have had problems. An African ensemble had a U.S. tour booked, and then at the last minute, something went awry with INS, so they couldn’t get in right away. The group had to cancel some tour dates, even at major festivals.

BB: It’s funny. And you know, while all the European guys, I think, still of course continue to admire the great American masters and the guys who invented jazz, somehow… The reigns seem to have slipped from North America and somehow Europe is becoming incredibly self-contained. I don’t mean among itself, but it’s become the new melting pot, if you like. Classically, Louisiana, Mississippi and other places in the Deep South served as a great musical cauldron that we learned about as kids and we were all dying to come to the States, which we did, and it was terrific. But somehow it feels that the 21st-century musical melting pot is somewhere around Morocco or, as you said, Paris. And it’s interesting, that, isn’t it?

AL: It’s because of the close interaction of all these diverse cultures. Cuba, too, is producing some great music. I mean, some of the albums I’ve heard coming out of there are really amazing. And the drummers! Julio Barreto, Jimmy Branly, Horacio Hernandez, Raul Pineda and others… Many were classically trained, yet grew up listening to jazz and salsa, and folkloric music. So they’re now incorporating it all. They’re outstanding players.

BB: Sure.

AL: You know, they’re playing Son and Rumba clav’s with their feet while playing polyrhythms around them on the drum kit.

BB: They make me feel very inadequate.

AL: Oh, I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

BB: I’m just a little old white boy from the southeast of England.

AL: You’ve a lot of soul and groove in your playing. You’ve nothing to worry about that. Let’s see… moving on, back to you. What’s on Bill Bruford’s mind today? What are some things you’d like to discuss? You can use this interview as your forum, if you will.

BB: Well… We’ve touched on a couple of things. One of which is the daily working life of a bandleader, as it were. Or a small group leader, such as me. And how that has changed so much, I think. And in the little 37 years that I’ve been going, it’s unrecognizable to being the same music industry. And I suppose it’s self-evident and I don’t really think there’s much of a conversation to be had there. Everybody knows you spend your entire life behind a computer. And that gives you, I think, less time to daydream and think. It was a slower, crazier world, and we didn’t automatically know all the answers immediately, 25 years ago. There was a confidence that you could probably add something fresh. Whereas now, as you’ve just told me, we’ve spent a good part of the last 20 minutes talking about all the great musicians you’ve encountered recently. And we’re all aware of all their music almost instantly. So somehow in that general cacophony, I find it harder to find a place to live and move and express your being, as they say. And I think other young musicians might find the same. Although the great thing about young musicians is they’ve no idea how complicated it is.

AL: There’s a natural na’vet’ with youth.

BB: Which is great. And no self-doubt at all. So the great thing is they never listen to people like me, which is, as it should be.

AL: I know a lot of young musicians who listen to you. My best friend’s son, for instance…

BB: [Laughs] I don’t mean listen to my music. I mean they don’t listen… Happily, they don’t… They don’t need to know it’s going to be tricky; let me put it like that. You can be good, you could be verging on the brilliant. You can be verging on the brilliant with brilliant stamina and you can be verging on the fantastic. But to actually market a CD across to the public with some creative music on it that’s going to sell more than two or three thousand copies is extremely difficult.

AL: I can see that. And when you add to that being a bandleader such as yourself, you have a sense of obligation to your other bandmembers.

BB: Of course you do! Certainly. Certainly. I think that again, you have to use the word – it’s a much overused word – but you have to reinvent yourself every two minutes. So whereas in January of this year, say you do a blinding concert for a promoter in, let’s take any city, Seattle or Madrid. If you ask him for another gig within 18 months he’ll say, Yes, but we saw you guys just a year and a half ago. And you’ll say, Yeah, but the music’s different and we play better now. And he’ll say, Yeah, but it’s still the same group. We just had you here.

AL: As I said earlier, as a former concert promoter, I can definitely relate to that scenario.

BB: To get the ticket buyer to come out to see the same act again, it has to be new. So we have to be new about four times a year. And being new four times a year is hard work.

AL: It’s also not necessarily fair to the old material, which, as you and I well know, can mature and improve over time as you take it on the road. Often times it becomes a better piece of music after it’s been road tested.

BB: Yeah, that’s absolutely true. So the commercial circumstances under which you’re operating require having the skin of a rhinoceros and the cunning of a snake, to be able to survive in. And, fun it is. But it… [chuckles] I just organized a 30-day tour that went roughly from April through July. We went everywhere, we went to Japan, Mexico, Russia. And great crowds and they loved it. And it’s terrific. But for one date in St. Petersburg, you’re looking at 70 or 80 emails. I suffered maybe 380 emails for the Japanese trip.

AL: Believe me, I can relate. The reverse is also true, from a concert promoter’s standpoint. To produce a two-hour concert may literally several month’s worth of preparation and then some.

BB: Sure. That’s right.

AL: I wonder if there’s any way to simplify the entire process… for both camps’

BB: I don’t think any body’s hit on it yet, but wouldn’t it be great? Just to have a booking agent say, Here’s the date sheet, have a go. This, of course, requires being in constant demand, and having people prepared to go out to clubs. So, there are some fantastic people to go out and hear. And actually here in the UK, concert attendance, or live music attendance, is on the rise.

AL: That’s a good thing.

BB: It’s a great thing. As are ticket sales, in general and as are ticket prices. I mean everything is on the rise, on the up, which means we musicians are doing the right thing. We are providing value for money. People do go home with a smile on their face. People do go home thinking, That was great. That was just… Tomorrow night’ But tonight I was really in with those musicians up on stage. So the live entertainment dollar is one well spent.

AL: I’m not certain if we’re seeing that less of that here because of 9/11 and it’s aftermath. I do think we’re more inculcated and have unfortunately become more jingoistic here in America, in that there are less musicians of world renown touring here. You know, groups such as Earthworks, and many others that’ve hardly played here. A lot of it is just more of the same. I personally don’t care to see the Eagles, or Britney Spears or Green Day or Eminem or Kenny G…

BB: Yeah. A huge amount of it is more of the same in the States. You’ve the cast iron acts that will return the dollar that are probably indigenous in the States, you know, American artists of one sort or another. And so, yeah, I’m sensing that. Whereas here, there’s just a bit more mobility around Europe and these crazed nations… The strangest musical hybrids and acts are being put together. As part of this kind of reinvention thing. The problem with that, is that sometimes you get some musical dross, but you also get some great stuff.

AL: Some of it is poorly contrived, but when it clicks, it does so very well.

BB: Yeah. Sure. Uh, huh.

AL: So let’s see, how are we doing time-wise for you ?

BB: Oh, give me a couple more and then we’ll hang up. But we’re having fun.

AL: I’m doing my best not to ask you all those questions that have been posed to you before…

BB: No, not at all. We can talk about SummerFold and WinterFold, if you’d like. I’ve got a whole kind of re-release schedule afoot.

AL: Sure. And perhaps touch upon a couple of specific musical questions ?

BB: Yeah, sure.

AL: Now I just obtained yesterday, my first WinterFold releases, I have Music for Piano and Drums and Flags.

BB: Do you really’ That’s great. I must say that’s remarkable efficiency from someone.

AL: The Artist Shop, I bought them online.

BB: You bought them? Oh, sorry. I thought you were sent them because you’re critic or something.

AL: That’d be nice; I’d love it if you’d put me in your press database.

BB: Oh, okay.

AL: But these I actually purchased.

BB: I haven’t got a copy of “Flags” yet, so you’re doing very well. But… that’s amazingly quick, actually. Wow! So there you are in the States and I don’t have a copy.

AL: And it’s your own album. I’ll send you mine, if you want. You can autograph it for me.

BB: [Laughs] But I think it’s self-evident really. SummerFold is more the jazz side, that’s sort of later than 1987; WinterFold is more the guitar, rock stuff, prior to 1987.

AL: I read in an interview that you might be producing a DVD of the Bruford group? Has that come to fruition yet?

BB: Mmmmmmmaybe. Lot of tortuous negotiations with the BBC. Who are very expensive.

AL: Please put me on your list. I’d love to see it. Bruford still is one of my favorite bands.

BB: We have a DVD out this Christmas with a Dutch musician, whose name, I don’t know whether you know or not, Michiel Borstlap. Great player. Terrific man. We’ve an on-off conversational duo. And updated Moraz / Bruford, if you’d like.

AL: Oh yeah?

BB: We’ve had a kind of conversational sort of, turn up and play kind of group, for the last couple of years. So we recorded some of that, and got some DVD footage on that, and they’re both coming out in November. He kind of shot to fame in Holland because Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock covered one of his compositions. And he won the T.S. Monk award or something. One of those… he’s a prize-winner guy. Not like me at all. So he’s one of these accolade-garnering guys. A lovely pianist. So we just kind of turn up and start playing.

AL: That was one of my impressions about Music for Piano and Drums. That was the first time you’d left the confines, so to speak, of a playing in a full ensemble to play in an intimate duet configuration. You must’ve had an immediate sense of play for lack of any other word, versus the tedious, Wait, my bass tone’s not right, or Hold on, my mellotron is all argy-bargy again.

BB: Oh yeah! Oh, all my groups are like that! They’re like girlfriends on the rebound, you know. I mean all that wearing and turning of the King Crimson guitar sound, all I wanted to hear was a saxophone and a bass. [Laughs] And after all the precision of Yes arrangements and so forth, and King Crimson and UK and Bruford-type of arrangements… Then to just turn up and play with a guy, I must admit, is just pleasurable. As you say, it’s playful.

AL: Right. For decades, I was always tied to, as I call it, the tyranny of electricity, playing the electric bass. And it wasn’t until a few years ago when I got my first acoustic 5-string bass guitar, it was like, Wow. This is freedom!

BB: Yeah, you become emancipated from all the amps, cables, A/C, the whole bit. It’s a lot of fun. So the duo with Moraz / Bruford and now Michiel Borstlap are kind of based on that. Just conversational dialogue material. So that’s coming out before Christmas and after the New Year we have a pretty ambitious re-release schedule through the whole of 2005. So I think both labels will probably have 10 to 15 CDs on each by the time we arrive at the end of 2006.

AL: Congratulations. I’m looking forward hearing them all. Okay, here’s a musical question for you.

BB: Shoot.

AL: For years you’ve had a signature motif — I hesitate to call it a fill – but it’s the one that goes: Tat-tat-tat, Tat-tat-tat, Tat-tat-tat. You’ve been doing that for a long time, in a wide variety of contexts and ensembles.

BB: Oh yeah.

AL: Where does that come from and why?

BB: It’s… I dunno… It’s… a little signature. It’s a way… Any African drummer would know what I’m talking about. He’d say, Well, I play this, and then every body listens to me. When I play this, what it means is that I’m talking now. Or, that I’m about to talk. What it also means is, the music has started. Or it might mean the music has ended.

AL: I’ve heard you play it in all those contexts.

BB: Absolutely. But whatever it is, it’s the drummer imposing himself in saying – and any kind of tribal drummer would understand what I’m talking about – he’s imposing himself in stating, Right now, the music is going to go this way. Or it’s either going to stop. Or it’s going to start. Or it’s going to attract the attention of a noisy audience, maybe.

AL: I’m surprised it’s not in seven.

BB: [Laughs] It’s just a little phrase. Music is a language of a sort. And we all speak in funny ways.

AL: Now how are we doing for time?

BB: Well, I really must do something else. It’s fun talking, but why don’t you give me one more and then we’ll probably call it a day.

AL: A quick little one and then a more serious one. What is your cat’s name ?

BB: We have two cats, actually. We had three but the last one died, I think. So currently we have a Mango. And we have a Monty.

AL: I have one, her name is Khatru.

BB: You mean after…?

AL: Yep. Siberian Khatru.

BB: Clever.

AL: Let’s see, here’s one. How did you come up with the name Earthworks?

BB: Oh, the usual thing. In the last five minutes. Django Bates, Iain Ballamy and I had to find a name in a hurry.

AL: So it was that quick?

BB: One of those, nobody could decide. We liked the name Earthworks because it comes at you at three or four different levels. But its disadvantage is that it’s word nobody outside of England understands.

AL: Actually there’s a professional lawn company here with that very same name.

BB: Really’ Ah, well that’s cool. There’s also a microphone company. There’s also a pottery in Barbados, earthenware products. But earthworks are all over England. You only have to go up in a light plane and see how the countryside, which is so old and has had people walking around on it for 2,000 or 3,000 years. You see where peoples’ earthworks were. Where their early homes were built. Where their early farmsteads were built. Where their early fortifications were. These are earthworks. It has a long connection to time and history. Secondly, in order to build a building of some stature at all, you have to first of all, dig its foundation or earthworks. So it becomes the foundation for a building; the foundation of building a career in jazz, if you like. It also has implications of man’s work here on Earth as his own earthworks. Blah, blah, blah… It goes on in several ways to us English guys. But this doesn’t translate at all into American, funny enough. The concept of primeval dwellings, the way Native Americans lived, is blown to dust, really. Whereas in our country, you can still see the fortifications of where ancient people were and their early ramparts and diggings and so forth.

AL: You only see that in isolated locations here.

BB: Depending upon the terrain and topography. It means nothing in German and it’s terrible in Japanese, and bloody awful in American, so it’s only a partially good choice.

AL: Well, if it’s any consolation, I’ve always liked it.

BB: Thanks. [Laughs] Well, I think we ought to wrap it up. I must cheerfully go do something else. But it’s been fun talking.

AL: You’ ve been very gracious with your time, Bill. And, as I said at the onset, it has been an extreme honor for me to speak with you. A dream come true.

BB: Thanks. All right, Robert. Take care.

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GIRLS DON’T LIKE REAL JAZZ – A Jazz Patriot Speaks Out by Walter Kolosky

December 4, 2004

GIRLS DON’T LIKE REAL JAZZ, News

GIRLS DON’T LIKE REAL JAZZ –Walter Kolosky

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Books about Jazz tend to be either encyclopedic lists, biographies of one of the great exponents of the art or histories of particular events in one of the many strands of style clustered under this one word. You probably wouldn’t read them unless you were a musician yourself or doing educational research.

Thankfully none of the above applies to this delightful read, being a collection of short stories, imaginations, ruminations and illuminations on the subject of Jazz, broad enough for a complete novice to forge an entre to the subject, while having sufficient meat on the bone to satisfy the most wizened and knowing member of the local Jazz Society 411.

Kolosky has his life’s experience of Jazz to call from, having been both a DJ and journalist in the genre and his knowledge of the subject informs without lecturing, offers ideas without dictating and above all seeks to entertain the reader with sufficient variety and bon homme while approaching a serious subject, namely the decline of what he sees as America’s primo exported culture marker.

From the provocative title and patriotic red, white and blue cover to the pictures of jazz albums that have literally scared people half to death on first hearing, what we have here is primarily a work of non-fiction, peppered with humor, real and semi-real facts, (and with some outrageous liberties taken with them too), in which Kolosky weaves the imagined into the real, the possible against the probable and the down right fallacious with the serious point of view.

If this book is anything to go by, whatever Jazz is, it appears that it can be serious, funny and entertaining all at once. Fans of the genre will find hidden jazz info, somewhat akin to Frank Zappa’s secret word of the day ploy, while those who don’t know their Coltrane from their Moontrane will find plenty of amusement within this accessible guide.

Here is a coffee table-top mini-treasure trove of anecdotes that can be dipped into for a quick 16 bar solo, or perused at length for a more complete jazz workout. Funny and thought provoking in turns, its trajectory is diverse enough to entertain both hard-bitten aficionados and flighty dilettantes.

This book serves equally well as a user-friendly intro, a topic of conversation and debate or brain food for the more seriously minded thinkers in the jazz fraternity. It may turn out that girls don’t like real jazz, but anyone should find real entertainment in this book.

Recently this Englishman asked the author a few pertinent questions on the hotline between Jazz City USA and JazzCentral UK:

MA: Why don’t girls like real jazz?

WK: That is a trick question. I will not answer it for fear of damaging my marriage. But seriously, I don’t know quite why. The point is that real jazz needs more women fans. Women are the engines of our economy. If the jazz world can find a way to mine this market there would be no need for such a book as “Girls Don’t Like Real Jazz”.

MA: What is real jazz?

WK: I quote former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in the book. He once said, I don’t know how to define real jazz. But I know it when I hear it. There is jazz and there is real jazz. To me, almost any form of improvised music can fall into the jazz category. I know this encompasses a lot of old and new musical traditions that make purists uncomfortable. But we live in a world in which many musical forms have merged and created new styles that are hard to deconstruct. What separates real jazz from jazz, in my opinion, is the degree of risk that is found in the music. I am specifically talking about the risks taken during improvisational aspects of the music. The higher the perceived risk the musician takes- the more obvious it is that you are listening to real jazz. There is no clear demarcation line. It is really up to the individual to decide what real jazz is. That being said, I want to make it clear that 99% of the time you can pick out real jazz from its bastard offspring- Smooth Jazz, which is devoid of all risk.

MA: There’s a lot of fun to be had in the book and I for one would particularly relish the Jazz Boxing concept you propose. I would especially be interested in the bout between Kenny G and Pat Metheny. But do you really think the sight of jazz drummers Billy Cobham and Dennis Hatman Chambers battling it out for 8 rounds would attract more people to listen to jazz?

WK: Jazz boxing is one of my plans to help save jazz in America. This is about reality TV programming– which is all that people watch in America these days. But, no I don’t think that particular bout by itself would attract a much larger audience for jazz. That is why I place it on the under card of the Metheny-G match. We need a few key fights for every boxing show to attract an audience. I also think that there is no way that the fight would last 8 rounds! Since I have written the book I have had the additional idea to group the jazz boxing show with one of those plastic surgery programs. Basically we would have a follow-up series that focuses on how plastic surgeons repair the damage to the faces of the jazz stars after they have been cut, bruised and battered. That way we get to control the TV franchise from the infliction of the wounds to their repair. I think it is a money-winner all around.

MA: Why is it important that jazz survives in terms of its cultural marker for the USA?

WK: Well, it is important to me. Whether it is important to thousands of other people– I don’t know. I hope it is- so I can sell a lot of books. It seems to me Marco that although America is young in comparison to the other countries of the world, we have offered our fellow travelers some important cultural markers- to use your words. Among the most joyful has been jazz music. It is an art form that has almost been universally accepted. I may not have a say in any other decision our government ever makes. But since I am in this jazz community, I think it is my duty to promote this music as one of the good faces that my country can present to the world. Historically, American jazz has been good foreign policy. Through jazz, the American spirit helped develop a way to help make things more pleasant for anyone in the world who would listen. You can count me as one of those people who admires any artist that wants to open his or her soul to try to communicate. I think that is a good thing and we have plenty of those people who need to be supported. The fact we in America are turning our backs on our own artistic gifts to the world is un-American.

MA: Smack dab in the middle of this book you turn real serious on us with a rather graphic story about a jazz murder.

WK: Well, I think it is made clear on the book flap that not every story in the book goes for laughs. But, I would also say that I view that particular chapter as dark humor. If you read it as if you were viewing Hitchcock’s movie “Frenzy” you may get a couple of chuckles out of it. But the greater purpose of that story is to show just how seriously some of these jazz musicians can take their music. Some just take it way too seriously. It can be unhealthy- especially to a murder victim.

MA: At 186 pages including some unusual graphics, the book is a quick read. Had you thought about expanding the book to include further detailed analysis of the problem?

WK: I purposely wanted a quick read. The book is a call to action- not an intellectual exercise. I was interested in bringing the issue to the attention of as many people as I could. I thought long and hard about what kind of package this book was going to be in. In the end, I decided I wanted to present a how-to-save-jazz guide book that would point out the problems facing jazz music in America. Then, in a creative and lighthearted way, talk about how to fix them. By its nature, I don’t think a guide book, especially a patriotic one, should weigh more than one pound. For the record, this book comes in at just over 14 ounces. In fact, my editor discarded text based solely on the weight of the book- not the quality of the material.

MA: You have a very interesting story about a dog that sings jazz. I must say I find it hard to believe.

WK: I don’t know what to say except that there are facts in the story that can be verified. So I guess people can come to their own conclusions based upon their research. And if you remember, I actually ask for the help of my readers in tracking a few things down.

MA: There’s a great interview set in the future with the last jazz musician called Loppy 7. His performances can only be heard through some kind of future internet site. Do you see this as being the outcome of the present decline in jazz as a live event?

WK: I certainly hope not Marco. But I am afraid that it may be the case. The trends in today’s society, and again I address the American trends, seem to start on Monday and come to fruition by Friday. I think it is a real slippery slope we are on that ignores American art in favor of the crass commercial opportunism that American business has become. I mean I think it is no accident you won’t find a real jazz section at a Wal-Mart. I am not above some crass commercialism myself, however, and would like everyone to buy the book so we can show Wal-Mart who the real boss is.

Girls Don’t Like Real Jazz: A Jazz Patriot Speaks Out
by Walter Kolosky, Abstract Logix Books, Hardcover 186 Pages, ISBN 0-9761016-0-2

Marco Anderson is a well-known and accomplished English jazz drummer and guitarist. His latest efforts have been on Surinder Sandhu’s Saurang Orchestra with Steve Vai, George Brooks and others and Paul Dunmall’s Present Tense. Read more about Marco Anderson athttp://www.foxyproductions.co.uk/

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Nat Janoff Interview

December 2, 2004

Nat Janoff, News

Nat Janoff

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New Jersey native Nat Janoff is a guitarist with a wonderful talent. Whether he is playing jazz or fusion with the likes of Matt Garrison and Gene Lake or wowing audiences with his acoustic forays with fellow guitarist Jake Schwartz; Janoff is making people sit up and listen. Nat has released two well-received CD’s and has plans for more. Janoff plays his axe with a proficient speed countered and augmented by a sensitive and nimble touch. Senior Abstract Logix writer Walter Kolosky recently obtained his views on the music business, his playing style and what’s ahead.

WK: How does a New Jersey jazz guitar player find a way to make a living these days?

NJ: Well I have a really great teaching practice that I have built up over the many years. I’ve been teaching for 17 years. I also play jazz gigs with my group Berkana, The Nat Janoff trio, The Nat Janoff Quartet, my duo with Jake Schwartz, and a host of other players who hire me for their own gigs and private events. I also play high end parties with my friend Jake Schwartz, people really dig our blend of styles and playing, and it’s something different than what a lot of people normally have. I also sell CD’s, that is the smallest part of the revenue stream right now but I’m working on changing that.

WK: You have released a couple of outstanding albums. “Looking Through”, from the Nat Janoff Group, features some swinging electric jazz. Then you and Jake released “Nat Janoff- Jake Schwartz Live” which was all acoustic. You tackled the world inhabited by McLaughlin-DiMeola- DeLucia on that one. How have these CD’s sold and how did you wrap your hands around ideas for marketing your music?

NJ: The CD’s have sold well for someone who has had very little exposure and basically no promotion through any major media channels. I have ideas for promoting. I need to be more aggressive about implementing these ideas. I’m also always open to hearing peoples’ ideas on promoting music.

WK: When you grow-up listening to your musical heroes, influences have to ultimately appear in your music no matter how honed your own style has become. Have you fully developed your style to your satisfaction by incorporating those influences or diminishing them?

NJ: I let my style evolve by playing things I like. If my style has traces of the players I love it’s just because I am attracted to something in their playing that resonates with me. I don’t feel my style is fully developed per se, I feel it’s a constantly evolving thing. Just like writing music, I feel the same way in that as a composer my music will be in a ever evolving state to. I would only incorporate or diminish some influence if I felt it wasn’t something that was a part of me anymore. You know I remember hearing some musicians telling me that when they were recording a CD they were so conscious of what other players on their instrument would think. That’s understandable, but I have to say when I’m playing for anybody I just try to get out of my own way and be myself, just play what I’m hearing in terms of what I want to say. You can’t get into thinking about what other people will think, you have to play your truth. You have to be yourself in the moment for better or worse, not everyone is going to love what you do. That’s just life. Not everyone will like you as a person what can you do, try to have everyone like you? You will lose yourself if you get into that and the best thing about music is turning your own self on (and hopefully others) to what you love in music and presenting it to the world.

WK: How does playing with such musicians as Matt Garrison, Jake Schwartz and others push you?

NJ: Playing with great musicians like Jake Schwartz, Matt Garrison, Gene Lake Rave Tesar, Ray LeVier etc.!!!!!!! Is such a great joy! It is also such great learning experience, I always tell my students who want to improve rapidly that you must play with players at your level or above because they will push you and make you play better! I will keep searching out and playing with the best players I can.

WK: What’s on your musical horizon?

NJ: Well the group I have with Ray LeVier on drums and Rave Tesar on keys and left hand bass is called BERKANA. It’s a killer funk, jazz, fusion group. We have just recorded 8 tunes and Rave and I have to do some overdubs then mix, master and press it. I hope to have that out in late October. I’ve been playing with some great straight ahead jazz musicians and I would love to do a straight ahead jazz recording so I’m writing some things for them, I probably will record them but not this year. I also will do another CD with Jake Schwartz, Jake is such a great player and writer and I think we have such an awesome chemistry that I want to do another duo CD exploring some new ground. That will probably come out next year. I also have some tremendous ideas in the music education field I have been teaching for a long time and I think I have some book / CD ideas that could a tremendous help to the beginning / intermediate guitarist. I will be getting those books out either through a publisher or I will self publish. I talked to William Bay the head of Mel Bay the huge music publisher and he was interested in me sending my proposal to him. I just want to be the player / teacher / composer I can be, and just keep growing as a person and musician.

WK: Do you have some gigs coming up so that some of our readers can go and check you out?

NJ: For all my shows you can go to www.natjanoff.com

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